It's time for China to Kill QWERTY keyboard

[Jack MacKelly]

I know a lot of Chinese are on the net and some have bought English style type-writers. What English-keyboard to most people use ? I bet it's one of those stupid Qwerty ones they are useless it's about time we got rid of them

they are a waste of time, are awkward and are responsible for lost man hours and lower production, not only that but the Qwerty keyboard makes typing a pain in the rear ( oh and by the way I can type - not super fast maybe 50-75 word per min depending on coffee intake.. but the Qwerty boards have still been a pain in the backside )

It's time for China to give the world New keyboards !!

That silly Qwetry keyboard designed to slow down the human brain and our hands to make our typing slower, the keyborad is inefficient and confusing. People have said replace this stupid system for 124 years, but there it remains because companies make their cash and the status quo sells and the world must accept 2nd best. The keyboard was deliberately designed to put the most-used letters in the worst places. The French people can be annoying at time but good on the country of France for not using that stupid Qwerty keyboard on their computers. Those keys made their first appearance on a rickety, clumsy device marketed as the "Type-Writer" in 1872 and now it is a universal fixture even on the most advanced, sophisticated computers and word processors electronic technology can produce. Maybe the the Dvorak Keyboard might sell or a new Chinese version, a good alternative to the QWERTY keyboard that is smarter, easier and faster.

China's largest maker in Shanghai, Beijing and HongKong are starting to buy into or purchase European/American companies, in business trade there is much info that Beijing is poised to buy IBM's personal computer manufacturing business and set up production in the Middle Kingdom. Some have said it is negotiating a possible deal to buy IBM's PC-making business for up to $2bn. New York Times said an IBM sale would be likely to include all of its desktop and laptop computers business, Chinese PC market is expected to grow about 20% this year and it is laready the world's second largest PC market.

Can China finally give the world a good keyboard to kill the madness of Qwerty, and save typists of the English language around the world

[Chappie]

I have an QWERTY keyboard but its not the same as a Chinese QWERTY or a British/German QWERTY.

Every keyboard is "adapted" to its language including chinese. You think its isnt but its true. AZERTY (i really hate that one) is used in france. But the @ in Italy is almost infindable for me. And the ( and ) are moved 1 block away in china.

Dvorak I havent seen them yet .

Azerty is more handy then QWERTY in french. Yes Its true! (The Q is more often used in french then in english).

I really hate USA people with their stupid inferior thinking about non-USA people. (I refuse to say Americans...)

[Jose]

Chappie,

Please calm down and try to respect other people. There are a lot of Americans who are members of this forum and even if there weren't, what you have said is simply unacceptable.

As for the QWERTY keyboard, it is true that there are variations for different languages, but these usually involve the punctuation marks rather than the Latin letters. I think it is only the French keyboard that has a difference in the layout of the letters proper.

[Jose]

Oh, I forgot. I think the German keyboard is slightly different too. I seem to remember the places of the Z and Y were swapped with respect to the English (or Spanish) layout. Anyway, it is still a variation of the dreaded QWERTY keyboard.

[Catdiseased]

yeah the german board is quiet different, mostly because of the umlauts.

[geraldc]

When typing in English, I can type faster than I can think (think coherently at least), so I've never really had a problem with the qwerty keyboard. I learnt to touch type in college when I just sat down one day with Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing, and a few hours later I could touch type. Typing is certainly something where if you sit down for a few hours and learn it in a structured way, it will pay dividends in the long run.

I can type Chinese using pinyin far faster than I can write it. When I write long hand I spend a lot of time dithering over whether or not I've missed a stroke etc. However I haven't really developed a decent system of typing pinyin yet, I still use the mouse to select characters rather than use the keyboard alone. So my right hand is constantly moving between keyboard and mouse.

The other Chinese entry methods aren't really an option for me, my spoken Chinese isn't consistent enough to use the Speech recognition in Microsoft Word, and I have no idea how to use any of the other entry methods.

My biggest problem with typing is switching to keyboards that are only slightly different, e.g for years I couldn't touch type on an Apple keyboards because they used to put the raised dimples on different keys, i.e. not on F or J but on D and K.

Even though I am happy with qwerty keyboards, I've still ordered myself a one-handed keyboard to play with, and I noticed that the company will soon start producing a one-handed Chinese keyboard, it will be interesting to see if it catches on.

[gato]

However I haven't really developed a decent system of typing pinyin yet, I still use the mouse to select characters rather than use the keyboard alone. So my right hand is constantly moving between keyboard and mouse

With NJStar Communicator, you can use the number keys to select the character you want. No mouse action is needed.

[Chappie]

Sorry jose but Im lately very pissed on Usa-people (not all) with their inferiour thinking about non-usa people. I dont know but I like more Canadians (awesome people) and Australians(wicked ones) then Usa-people.

British people are the best (many macked brits are visiting amsterdam not for the building/cultural stuff but for our famous WEED/RedLight District)

[Serenawang]

Now I am using the keyboard with QWERT to type Chinese word, but it doesn't affect my speed. And if you provide me another keyboard, I think it may be difficult to me.

When you are familiar with something, you will get used to it.

中国有句古话“熟能生巧”

[imron]

*sigh* What a load of absolute nonsense.

First of all, the design of the QWERTY keyboard had two goals. 1) To increase typing speed, and 2) To prevent keys from sticking together in older typewriters. This was done by a) separating frequently used letter combinations from each other and B) placing frequently occuring letter combinations on separate hands.

While it might be true that QWERTY is not the absolute optimal arrangement of keys, it does not hold true that it was designed to be slow. On the contrary it was designed to *improve* typing speed. There is a reason that keys like 'z' and 'q' aren't placed in prominent positions, and a reason why they are placed in more prominent positions on German and French keyboards (which make greater use of these letters).

Secondly, the actual speed differences between QWERTY and Dvorak layouts aren't all that huge. Both allow typists to type at very high speeds. Regardless of which layout you use, the fact is that for someone who knows how to touch-type, the speed bottleneck is very rarely the speed at which you can type, but rather the speed at which you can think and compose sentences, and the rate at which you get distracted by other things. Dvorak has been around for close to 70 years, and there is a reason why it has never become mainstream.

When you factor this in with QWERTY's current market dominance, you will realise that the reason no-one is moving over to Dvorak, is not due to manufacturers using QWERTY as a cash cow, but rather because there are millions upon millions of people who are already trained with a 'good enough' method for input, and the cost involved in retraining all these people (both in time and money) is enormous, and not justified by the small (if any) gain in productivity.

Don't believe me? Well, here is something to think about. Even though the keys might have the QWERTY layout printed on them, all modern operating systems allow you to remap the keyboard layout to whatever you want. That's right, as far as the keyboard is concerned the letter printed on the key actually has no relation to the letter that appears on your screen. Correlating keys pressed to actual letters is the job of the Operating System (OS). So even if manufacturers kept on making QWERTY keyboards, there is nothing to stop anyone from going into the keyboard settings of their OS, and remapping everything to Dvorak - but there is a reason not many people actually do this (see above about retraining).

This then leads on to my final point, namely about Chinese keyboards. "Chinese" keyboard and keyboard layouts have already been invented, and have been around for years (Wubizixing, the most popular of these, has been around for close to 20 years, and Cangjie has been around for even longer). They don't rely on roman characters, but rather strokes and character shapes. Rather than designing a special keyboard with the relevant strokes printed on them, a modern system will simply remap the keys at the OS level. Simple and efficient. Such input methods are typically far more efficient than typing using "pinyin" with a QWERTY layout, for example, a typist well-trained in Wubi can type at over 160 characters a minute.

Put simply, your entire post is made up of misinformation, half-truths, and ignorance. Next time, I suggest you do a little more research before going off on such a rant. A good place to start would be:

http://wwwpub.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/keys1.html

and

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=356

and

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~wicentow/wubixing.html

[yonglan]

I really hate USA people with their stupid inferior thinking about non-USA people. (I refuse to say Americans...)

Please take your ignorance elsewhere. Especially since it's so out of the blue, I would recommend you seek professioinal help.

Americans have the same right to name their country as anyone else and they have called themselves Americans since before they were a country. There is another country with "United States" in the name (though in English the two words aren't put together, in Spanish they are together as America's common name in Spanish is) and at least one other with "States". There is no other country with "America" in the name. There are two continents that use the name, but they are NORTH America and SOUTH America, or collectively THE AmericaS.

Many find Dvorak to be a superior keyboard layout because it makes typing easier and makes for less mistakes. Speed is not everything. Dvorak hasn't caught on, but neither has the Mac, nor has mass transit in America (though it was once extremely common). There are whole books on why. It's not because any of these things are inferior.

[Chappie]

The bloody point is every country has its own keyboard. The french people are using AZERTY, and azerty is almost the same as QWERTY!

I dont what the hell is a Dvorak keyboard. As for it has no point using that in Dutch (in my case) or in chinese! And besides chinese programmers arent programming in chinese! So they use the QWERTY.

And jack is putting like this. QWERTY sucks! without any good arguments. Ok qwerty sucks (sometimes I think also). Its just an image what most Europeans thinks about USA-people what I said about USA people (Bush has created that image). And besides I hate only the people with their inferior thinking.

[yonglan]

Sure, for example, Japanese QWERTY has the the quotes above the 7 (if I remember correctly) and other things, but many places have what is basically qwerty. Now, I don't know why they didn't just completely rearrange things; that's their business.

And jack is putting like this. QWERTY sucks! without any good arguments. Ok qwerty sucks (sometimes I think also). Its just an image what most Europeans thinks about USA-people what I said about USA people (Bush has created that image). And besides I hate only the people with their inferior thinking.

Although Jack (OP) does not list his location, he lists his languages as "Irish, English, French", so I am not betting on his being American. Further, he did give reasons for his opinion. He didn't cite peer-reviewed studies in ergonomics, but he did give reasons. If a post about keyboard design arouses such hostility in you, I would suggest the problem is all yours, though I know it is convenient and comforting to blame our problems on others.

The French people can be annoying at time but good on the country of France for not using that stupid Qwerty keyboard on their computers.

The phrase "good on x" is a Britishism that is almost never heard eminating from an American mouth. If Jack is American, I'll be incredibly surprised (and ask to see his passport).

I dont what the hell is a Dvorak keyboard. As for it has no point using that in Dutch (in my case) or in chinese! And besides chinese programmers arent programming in chinese! So they use the QWERTY.

I don't want to be a professional logician here, but if you don't know what it is, then how can you say anything about it? I think Dvorak is better for pinyin and would likely be better for most languages with a mix of vowels and consonants (hee hee hee) than qwerty. Again, they'll need to modify it to suit their needs. But you'll have to pardon me, I've been stupid enough to use both and comment from my experience rather than my imagination.

[Chappie]

yours i can accept. I might be true that Dvoark, but not many people has seen other keyboards in other countries. And using their language in their keyboard (unlike me). And Im tellin you that qwerty really sux for french. and azerty for english. But when people aer used to their kind keyboard it doesnt make much matter between what kind of keyboard use you use. Esspecially youre able to write in more then 1 language(in my case 5)

[Jack MacKelly]

No folks this is not a thread to Bash some American design or knock Bush ( even though I don't like the guy ), the USA has given us some fine stuff over the years, built some very good trains and automobiles over the years, the US has made great computers, its music & film industry has had a global impact, its space designs in the past have been wonderful, and its has made leaps and bounds in health, education and research and electronics.

However I will not praise the Qwerty keyboard which has come from the design of "Type-Writer" in 1872, some people are starting to move away from this qwerty system but not enough. The status quo remains and people have to accept second best. A number of court room typists use a system that helps type shorthand and some large companies use the Dvoark keyboard. If Chinese are to mass produce laptops and keyboards for English speakers inside the country and native speakers outside China, then shouldn't they also look to the production of an alternative design. The Qwerty keyboard is an old design, it is flawed, some call it awkward and it is know to consume more man hours....isn't it time China killed the Qwerty keyboard ??

[pazu]

I'm always happy that China is using the QWERTY, not because it's the best or a better one, but it's more widely accepted everywhere in Asia. I don't want to change my typing habit again and again in Korea or Thailand.

[imron]

However I will not praise the Qwerty keyboard which has come from the design of "Type-Writer" in 1872

Yet you are happy to make recommendations for keyboards based on shorthand methods (shorthand being something invented well before the Qwerty keyboard), and also for the Dvorak layout, which although designed slightly later, was also designed for use in type writers.

Plus you still overlook the fact that no-one needs to use the Qwerty layout if they don't want to. The letters printed on the face of a key have absolutely no fixed relation to the actual letters input on the computer. People are free to remap the keys to whatever they like. This is done regularly by people who prefer the Dvorak layout, and also by people who use character based input methods for Chinese or other character based languages.

Also, there is a difference between professional typists who are required to type at high-speeds and high-accuracy for a living (i.e. court reporters), and your average Joe who just needs to send an email to his Mum, or argue about trivial topics on internet bulletin boards The two groups have different requirements and needs, and it doesn't necessarily hold true that what it suitable for one group is suitable for the other.

Finally to tie this all back in with Chinese, and try to return to some semblance of relevance, chinese typists interested in typing at high speeds will learn something like Wubi, and never have to worry about Qwerty. Those that don't are making the decision that it's not worth their time or their effort, because the current system is good enough for their needs.

In closing, I hope you don't misunderstand me as someone who thinks the Qwerty keyboard is the best available method for input. I don't. However I do believe it's a "good enough" method for input, and also that it's not up to China to kill the Qwerty keyboard. The tools and methods are already readily available for anyone who wishes to do this.

[adrian440]

For those not in the know,

The Dvorak layout was invented to make typing faster and easier, by putting the most commonly used letters underneath the fingertips, mostly vowels and commonly used consenants. The less frequently used letters are more out of reach.

I learnt to use the dvorak keyboard method over about two months, but I was disappointed with the results and switched back. Sometimes it was more comfortable to type, but I found qwerty faster and generally more comfortable. The main reason for this is when typing, qwerty tends to alternate your fingers and hands, whereas dvorak seems require more consecutive strokes from the same finger, which is slow and uncomfortable.

So if you find qwerty uncomfortable, try Dvorak, but it takes time and persistance to learn, and may not satisfy you.

[liuzhou]

by putting the most commonly used letters underneath the fingertips, mostly vowels and commonly used consonants

But they vary from language to language. Are you suggesting we have different keyboards layouts for each language? As someone who types in different languages everyday, I can see that causing some problems.

Whatever reason the QWERTY keyboard was invented, it is still the layout used by 99% of the typing population worldwide (with minor variations) and does a surprisingly good job.

Leave it alone.

[-(Shell)-]

I honestly have no problems with the QWERTY keyboard whatsoever. If you dont like it, there is probally some way to customize the keys with Windows or something. Bitch to microsoft.

@Chappie

I do find your comments about the USA offensive. Not all of us agree on the same things, and theres alot of people that dont like some of the stuff the USA does, but I love my homeland. It was where I was born and raised. I dont bash on your home. Please dont talk about mine.