Check of Usage of "de"

[Glenn]

I was looking at the definition for 返回 in the 國語辭典 -- 回到原來的地方。如：「經過數載的努力有成，他終於可以光榮的返回故里。」The question I have is about the example sentence. Shouldn't the 的 in 光榮的返回故里 be 地? Or am I misunderstanding the functions of the words? It sure looks like it's "he could finally return home gloriously". If it's not that, what would the verb be in the second clause? Also, is the first part of the sentence saying "achieving success after struggling through many attempts"? I'm a bit confused about 數載 here.

[jbradfor]

I would say "地" too -- but I look forward to a more knowledgeable answer.

"數載" -- I think that means several / numerous years. 載 as third tone means "year", I think.

[Jun Yang]

I'm so surprised that in a dictionary there could be a sentence like “经过数载的努力有成”. Is there such a big difference between taiwanese and we people in the PRC? In the PRC, we never say “经过数载的努力有成”， obviously it should be "经过数载有成的努力". Of course in most place, "的努力" should be “地努力”. but "有成的努力" or "努力有成" should be considered as a whole. "he could finally return home gloriously" is a very good translation. And 数 = mang, 载 = year,

数载 = many years. “经过数载的努力有成” should be “经过数载有成的努力” in mandarin. And it should be translated approximately as "After many years' successful effort". Excuse my poor English.

[Glenn]

Looks like you're right about 載:

1.　載　　部首　車　部首外筆畫　6　總筆畫　13

注音一式　 ㄗㄞˇ

漢語拼音 zǎi

量詞。計算時間的單位。相當於「年」。如：「一年半載」、「三年五載」、「千載難逢」。

Thanks. I probably should have checked that... I'm guessing the first two examples are 成語 (I just checked -- I was right! ).

[Glenn]

Thank you, Jun Yang! Sorry, for some reason I didn't see your reply earlier. So, I wonder if there are any Taiwanese Mandarin speakers who can comment on the syntax of the first part, then.

[creamyhorror]

I'm so surprised that in a dictionary there could be a sentence like “经过数载的努力有成”. Is there such a big difference between taiwanese and we people in the PRC? In the PRC, we never say “经过数载的努力有成”， obviously it should be "经过数载有成的努力".

I think it comes down to whether 努力有成 can be used as a noun (like 埋头苦干). I tried googling and came across two adjectival usages:

(adjective) "而他也真的努力有成，在他23岁那年真的就获得与paganini同台演出的机会。"

(adjective) "新手來站內發問求教就是客棧的努力有成的表現"

but most of the examples were the more standard usages like "足以代表他們的努力有成".

[renshanrenhai]

To be honest, the modern Chinese is not so grammatically perfect as it was in old style (namely,古文).

If we pick holes in the grammar of modern Chinese, a sea of grammatically wrong utterances will show up.

So your discovery of "的"and “地”here is really a very insightful one.

Both "的"and "地"can be used here, but for Chinese it's more common to see "的" despite it is an adjective but really functions as an adverb.

If you want to be more strict with the grammar, i have to say “光荣--地--返回故里”is perfect. Your confusion definitely reflects Chinese people's difficulty in learning English where learners never feel easy with adverb in English.

[Glenn]

So the first part would be like "his effort through the years had been successful" or something like that?

經過 -- passage of time; over; through (verb)

數載 -- many years (noun)

的 -- attributive/genetive marker

努力 -- effort (noun)

有 -- had (verb)

成 -- success/effect (noun)

Does that look right? (and does it make sense?)

[renshanrenhai]

So the first part would be like "his effort through the years had been successful" or something like that?

經過 -- passage of time; over; through (verb)

數載 -- many years (noun)

的 -- attributive/genetive marker

努力 -- effort (noun)

有 -- had (verb)

成 -- success/effect (noun)

Does that look right? (and does it make sense?)

Your translation makes sense and very close to the meaning but i can give you an analysis that makes it more logically correct in English.

To understand grammar structure of the first part of the sentence, it's worth to mention a collocation in Chinese "经过(prep.)+adj.+努力(noun)".

(e.g. "经过长久的努力" means after a persistent effort.)

So you have to see "努力有成" as a whole and equal to a noun modified by a post attributive.

I am a native speaker but i am the same as all the English speakers who never learned the grammar system in Chinese. The only approach i can use to analysis the logic of my mother tongue is the grammar of English . And then i found the grammar of my mother tongue is not perfect and even illogical.

So here i offer you a version that looks logically correct in English.

经过—— after, through (prep.)

数载的—— very long, persistent (adj.)

努力有成—— a successful\efficient effort (adj+noun)

有成—— successful (adj.)

oh, i have to say Chinese is a bit hard for a western mind to understand.

[imron]

oh, i have to say Chinese is a bit hard for a western mind to understand.

Ah, so that's what the problem is. After all these years, it turns out that the all the difficulty I've had in learning Chinese has been because of my western mind

[Glenn]

有成—— successful (adj.)

Ah, yes. I've seen the 有X pattern analysed as an adjective before. That makes sense. Thanks for the explanation!