Writing - the hardest skill of all?

[xianhua]

Reading, speaking and listening to Chinese all posses their own intricacies; however, it is begining to occur to me that writing is by far the more challenging skill. I find that, despite making mistakes when speaking, the message can still be conveyed adequately; and with listening and reading, part of the speech/text may not be understood, but the meaning can still be ascertained. However, writing (and having it corrected by native speakers on Lang-8 is like having your soul laid bare for all and sundry to criticise, butcher and then re-assemble. All those little mistakes are going to be scrutinised to the max.

I wondered how other members have improved their writing skills? My current technique involves writing down my original sentence (in Word) and then writing the corrected version below. I then review my incorrect sentence by trying to remember how it should be written, before checking the correct answer beneath it. I've met with limited success using this method though.

I also feel that a great deal of ambiguity exists where one person will correct a sentence and the next will say it's fine. This confuses matters further.

Finally, how much did writing improve or influence your other skills?

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[jiacheng]

When you say "writing", I'm assuming that you mean expressing your thoughts in as native a manner as possible rather than recalling how to write individual words. I had a similar thought to you with recording sentences that I write and have corrected by native speakers. I took it one step further and put them into anki, but at this point I haven't been reviewing them. It also occurred to me that a good source for this material would be to write articles about subjects that I tend to discuss frequently and then having them be corrected by native speakers. Since I haven't really started reviewing them yet, I can't say for sure how well it will work.

I think that the best sentences will be fairly short as they will be less ambiguous than long ones.

[renshanrenhai]

I then review my incorrect sentence by trying to remember how it should be written, before checking the correct answer beneath it. I've met with limited success using this method though.I also feel that a great deal of ambiguity exists where one person will correct a sentence and the next will say it's fine. This confuses matters further

How was an incorrect sentence defined?

Can you give an example?

[imron]

Have you seen the site lang-8? You write something, and then native speakers will correct it for you, so you'll be able to see a before and after. It's done with a combination of coloured text and strikethrough lines.

[Neil_H]

I am keen to know the answer to the question of how much difference does it make if you spend time learning to write the characters?

I really hate characters and am only interested in getting my listening and speaking skills up to Intermediate standard. In the past people on the forum advised I had to learn characters to improve my speach. After having a go at it in December - February 2010/11 and again in July 2011 - now I have still not got much further than 200 characters. In the first stage I moved up to 200 characters fairly quickly. This time round I have been trying to write them using Skritter and my progress has slowed down so much.

Given my goal is the improvement of speach and listening (currently at around 1100-1200 words) how important is the writting?

Would I be better of just using my character book and studying slower and more thorough?

Thank you

[Murray]

It's certainly possible to speak excellent Chinese without touching characters; knowing how to write has no real correlation to your speaking/listening abilities.

If it's the case that you aren't taking formal classes where you'd be expected to know Hanzi, it basically comes down to what your personal goals are when it comes to learning Chinese.

Although, if you're planning to spend time in China, you'd be crippled by your illiteracy, since you wouldn't be able to read anything.

But if that doesn't bother you and you still just want to focus on speaking, I'd say go for it. Focus on pinyin and do your thing.

[anonymoose]

Who are you improving your speech and listening with? If you have chinese people to practice with, and they can write things down for you in pinyin, then you will be able to get however far they can help you. Otherwise you will only be able to get as far as your textbooks take you.

An advantage with characters is that you can chat with chinese people on the internet (using MSN, QQ and so on). This also helps with speech and listening because, although it is not sound-based, the thought processes involved and style of language used are very similar.

[abcdefg]

Edit: I was going to comment on using Lang-8 for learning Chinese composition, but I realize that the subject of the thread has shifted now to a discussion of the benefits of learning Hanzi characters. I've nothing to add on that, so post deleted.

Edited May 6, 2012 at 05:07 AM by abcdefg

[creamyhorror]

I really hate characters

I don't know, this sort of says to me you really hate (a major part of) Chinese. I mean, the spoken language is very closely related to the written one at anything beyond the basic level; not being able to read characters makes it significantly harder to progress once you're past the basic pinyin material that's available out there.

This time round I have been trying to write them using Skritter and my progress has slowed down so much.

Given my goal is the improvement of speach and listening (currently at around 1100-1200 words) how important is the writting?

Why do you suddenly refer to writing? People presumably told you to learn [to read] the characters, not to learn to write them. Don't specially attempt to learn writing unless you find it helps speed up/reinforce your learning; for your goals, being able to read them is enough.

Would I be better of just using my character book and studying slower and more thorough?

Use Anki or another SRS flashcard system and drill words that you've come across in context. Or use Heisig to learn the basic meanings of the first thousand or so characters quickly. Either way, don't simply just stare at character entries in a book for longer periods of time. Take an effective approach, not a merely diligent one!

[skylee]

xianhua, I think the only ways to improve your own writing are to read more, so that you may learn how other people write, and write more so that you may practise expressing yourself. I think these are good both for improving your grammar at a lower level and for progressing to improve your style. How much do you read? Have you tried or finished those recommended by other learners on the forums?

[abcdefg]

Seems we have returned to @xinhua's original post, so I'll go ahead and say what I was planning to earlier.

However, writing (and having it corrected by native speakers on Lang-8 is like having your soul laid bare for all and sundry to criticise, butcher and then re-assemble. All those little mistakes are going to be scrutinised to the max.

I've used Lang-8 and found it to be a useful but mixed experience. Part of my own difficulty composing things to post there is that I tend to write the way I would speak, instead of using 书面语。 Most of the native speakers doing the correcting there seem to be Chinese university students and they don't always think that writing style is appropriate, so they change a lot of my stuff.

I also feel that a great deal of ambiguity exists where one person will correct a sentence and the next will say it's fine. This confuses matters further.

I've found that too, but it's really not surprising. If you read some of the corrections of English composition there (on Lang-Eight) made by native English speakers, you will soon realize that some of the corrections are completely ridiculous and must have been made by simple-minded people who can only conceive of one way to say any given thing.

So I no longer worry about each and every correction; I listen more to two or three trustworthy people who usually steer me right week after week, and pretty much ignore the rest.

I like @skylee's point. I definitely don't read enough.