wlee08 Posted August 22, 2011 at 04:25 PM Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 at 04:25 PM I came across this sentence in an intermediate level text: "你们 援助 的 方式 为何?" it is translated as: "What methods are you using to help?" I'm a bit confused because I translated "为何" as "why", so I am wondering if the original sentence makes sense. Or can "为何" also mean "how"? Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roddy Posted August 22, 2011 at 05:28 PM Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 at 05:28 PM Could we please have better titles than 'Chinese to English' - that describes half the topics on the site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlee08 Posted August 22, 2011 at 06:04 PM Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 at 06:04 PM OK, thank you for changing the title Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creamyhorror Posted August 22, 2011 at 07:54 PM Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 at 07:54 PM "你们 援助 的 方式 为何?" This sentence seems wrong to me. Maybe a native speaker can assist. What text is this from exactly? edit: Oh, is it that "Ni Zao! Ni Hao!" (Rainple Cocchi, 2006) book? It sounds pretty suspect to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skylee Posted August 22, 2011 at 10:55 PM Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 at 10:55 PM It is not wrong. 為here is pronounced wei2, meaning "to be". 為何 here means "是甚麼 / is what". 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny同志 Posted August 22, 2011 at 11:32 PM Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 at 11:32 PM The sentence is incomplete to me. There should be something following 为何, e.g. 你们的援助方式为何与众不同呢？ Obviously this is not classical Chinese, so if 为何 means "be what" it makes the sentence awkward. Better to say 你们提供哪些援助 or 你们的援助方式有哪些 or 你们有哪些援助手段 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skylee Posted August 22, 2011 at 11:41 PM Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 at 11:41 PM I think it is fine. Not everyone has to write/speak the same way. And in fact not everyone writes / speaks the same way. Including this in the textbook helps expose learners to different styles / usages (not sure if this is intentional, though). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlee08 Posted August 22, 2011 at 11:57 PM Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 at 11:57 PM Yes, it is from the book "Ni Zao Ni Hao". I am still unsure of whether to continue studying from this book. Here is a scan of a couple of pages (a dialogue on the subject of foreign aid). Perhaps this will help to determine if there are errors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny同志 Posted August 23, 2011 at 12:05 AM Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 at 12:05 AM I agree. There're always more than one ways to say the same thing but the phrasing seems to me really awkward considering it's spoken Chinese. However, it might be okay in spoken Cantonese which retains many classical expressions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofmann Posted August 23, 2011 at 12:21 AM Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 at 12:21 AM I don't see anything wrong with that sentence, if it's clear to you that 為 (wei2) is a copula and not "for". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny同志 Posted August 23, 2011 at 12:23 AM Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 at 12:23 AM Better to say 你们的援助方式有哪些 given the context 你们的援助方式为何 is still awkawrd in written Chinese because 方式 and 为何 don't match well, kind of like a person having a necktie on while wearing 古装. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovelanguage Posted August 23, 2011 at 01:11 AM Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 at 01:11 AM This sentence should be a cantonese sentence. In Mandarin, it would be 你们援助的方式是什么? So, in Cantonese, 為 means 'as, for' and it can be 是 in Mandarin; 何 means 'what' and it can be 什么 in Mandarin. However, depending on the context, 為何 generally is considered as Colloquial Cantonese, as it is an unfinished sentence if it ends with 為何. Literally, it would be 你們援助的方式為何種方式? etc. Hope it helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creamyhorror Posted August 23, 2011 at 02:14 AM Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 at 02:14 AM Thank you skylee, kenny, Hofmann and ilovelanguage for the discussion. I admittedly missed the "wei2 he2" possibility (and I shouldn't have), but it still sounds strange to me. I don't think I've come across 何 as a standalone noun "what" in modern writing like it's used here (except in fixed expressions like wei4 he2). Usually it's used as a interrogative/prefix: 何处, 何种, etc. I acknowledge it's valid on a technical literary level, though. Also, that sample conversation from the text seems pretty technical and area-specific even for a intermediate book . . . almost like a guide to public policy Chinese vocabulary! @wlee08: Your confusion probably came from the fact that the 为何 here is not the usual modern usage wei4 he2 meaning "why" (the only meaning given by dictionaries of modern Mandarin), but is being read in literary/classical Chinese style - character by character: [你们的援助方式=your methods of assistance] [为=be] [何=what] [？] 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofmann Posted August 23, 2011 at 02:21 AM Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 at 02:21 AM What's up with you people saying it's Cantonese? You know that 的 isn't a subordinate particle in Cantonese, right? It means "target." Cantonese would use 個 (ge3) there. Also 等 instead of 們. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovelanguage Posted August 23, 2011 at 02:35 AM Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 at 02:35 AM Well, Hofmann, colloquially Cantonese may not have '的' on day-to-day basis, but if for academic entries, I don't think it's wrong at all. Indeed, it's used a lot, even in songs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imron Posted August 23, 2011 at 02:40 AM Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 at 02:40 AM Indeed, it's used a lot, even in songs I guess that settles it then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofmann Posted August 23, 2011 at 03:22 AM Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 at 03:22 AM ...hehehehe...yeah... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlee08 Posted August 23, 2011 at 03:24 AM Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 at 03:24 AM Thank you to everyone for providing insight on this sentence. Given that it doesn't seem like a natural way of speaking in a dialogue, (although it may be technically correct) I will probably move away from this book in favour of something more "street-level", Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny同志 Posted August 23, 2011 at 03:34 AM Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 at 03:34 AM @Hofmann I didn't say it was Cantonese but I meant that native Cantonese speakers might find it acceptable. As a native speaker of Mandarin I find it really awkward and weird. And I am sure most native Mandarin speakers will think so too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofmann Posted August 23, 2011 at 03:57 AM Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 at 03:57 AM Ah, OK. Well if it counts I, a native Cantonese speaker and a Mandarin learner, think it's Awkward as a Mandarin sentence. Not a legal Cantonese sentence. (Sorry; the 白話文運動 didn't extend to my part of the village.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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