Learning a language with your spouse / SO

[jbradfor]

As for learning Chinese, your girlfriend may well appreciate your initial efforts. However, once you get past the elementary stage and start asking questions every night such as why 好容易 and 好不容易 are not antonyms, or the connection between bragging and cows (吹牛), then she'll long for your monolingual days.

[With apologies to xianhua for taking this quote out-of-context, but it's the perfect lead-in to my question.]

For people here with a different native language than ones spouse's, in which one (or both) of you are trying to learn the others' native language (I mean seriously learn, as if we don't have any non-serious people here), what has been your experience with getting help from and/or helping your spouse?

For me, my situation is likely a bit different. While my wife is Chinese, she speaks Cantonese, so she can't help me with spoken Mandarin. For written Chinese, I ask an occasional question, but most of the time it's more along the lines of "I learned this about Chinese, isn't that neat!?". And I've never made any serious effort to learn Cantonese, I figure I know maybe 50 words, if that. [Which is another point of contention, but that's another issue....]

Since we live in the USA, we both always speak English. Maybe a couple times a week she'll ask me a question about English (looking for the correct word, subtle differences between two phrasings). I'm always happy to help her, I can't imagine anyone not being willing to help their spouse with small questions like this. But I realize that is quite a difference from constant questions or really teaching someone a foreign language.

[roddy]

Reminded me of this old topic from the other side of the dinner table. Worth a read.

I found it hard because most of the time he wouldn't understand what I am saying, or I would almost anticipate what he will understand and what he will not understand! for example, if i say I AM EATING in chinese he will surely understand but if i say I AM DESIGNING A CATALOGUE then he will have no idea what i am talking about!

[renzhe]

I have found it extremely helpful, but you need to be aware that (when it comes to the language aspect!) it's an additional important resource and an additional motivation boost, but definitely not a guarantee for anything.

Having a native speaker around for asking questions (especially when reading 水浒!) is worth gold, but the conversation gets dry after a while. What really helps is when both of you are talking to a third Chinese person, or a Chinese-speaking group. And there you get many more opportunities.

[Shelley]

Hi ya,

I think that it would be nice to be able to share your knowledge with your spouse, but not all people make good teachers.

My spouse is intellegent, helpful, keen to impart knowledge to anyone who will listen, but is actually not a good teacher. There is no structure to the info and explainations are short. I am a native english speaker, and I would find it hard to teach someone english properly. I know what but not always why. I learned by asbsorbtion and not from a book as do all learners of their first language. It just gets learnt without explanation. later on some english language lessons teach some of the rules and exceptions, I don't know them all.

I hope I have made myself clear:)

The odd question is probably great but I am sure the spouse didn't expect to become a language teacher too:)

So in short they are your spouse not your teacher.

Shelley

P.S. Slightiy off topic but relevent I think. They say you should never have driving lessons from a spouse, many divorces have come of this.

[LaoJian]

如果我可以有机会教我的女朋友说汉语，我会把这看做是一种幸福(bliss)

I just wish I could have a chance to teach my girlfriend Chinese. That would be bliss.

[xuefang]

The situation between my and my Chinese boyfriend is this. My native language is Finnish, but I would say my English is ok. My Mandarin is maybe on an elementary level and I can handle daily life in Mandarin. My boyfriend's native language is Yangjianghua which is a subdialect of Gao-Yang Yue which is a branch of Cantonese. His second language is Cantonese and Mandarin is only the third.

The only language we can communicate in is Mandarin, language in which we both aren't that good. Speaking with my boyfriend everyday surely have helped me with my spoken Mandarin, but still he is not my teacher. I don't really ask him any questions related to learning Mandarin, but he asks me how to write some characters.

Sometimes I think I should teach him some English and Finnish, but I'm not a good teacher. He can speak like five phrases of each language, but that's it. In order for him to learn more it would mean going to school or hiring a tutor. He prefers working and earning money. So I'm not really helping him and he is not really helping me. Actually he really isn't the best example for me with his Mandarin.

I would like to learn Cantonese too, but again I would do that in university / on my own rather than asking him to teach.

[kdavid]

90% of the reason I've reached the level of fluency I have is because of my wife. She has always been very supportive with my goals. For the first 2 - 3 months we were together (then, just dating) we spoke English. By month 4 or 5, we were only speaking Chinese, and have continued so for the past five years.

She has never been a teacher, but instead a language partner. I initially studied with tutors, and a lot on my own. However, I've practiced everything with her. She's also been fantastic at correcting me and explaining points of discrepancy. I'm blessed to have such a wonderful wife. All of my other married friends only speak English with their spouses--their significant others seem to lack the patience to try and converse with the other only in Chinese.

I'm confident I would not be where I am linguistically if it weren't for my wife.

[amandagmu]

It's super difficult to learn the SO's language when that SO is as competent or more so in your own native language. Case in point: husband is from Spain but majored in English, spent time in the UK, before then also completing a PhD in linguistics at an English-speaking institution (and now works in such an environment). He speaks as well as any of my colleagues and he writes better than most native English speakers I know. The *only* differences come in his inability to interpret slang phrases, obscure idiomatic phrases, or cultural references. (Even humor he understands; he loves to watch The Daily Show and Colbert Report.) So while Spanish is, indeed, a fairly easy language to learn (especially as compared to Chinese) we have never spoken more than few sentences of it when together. Of course, I still need to learn it since his parents speak NO English at all, so I'm doing that, but I doubt we'll ever switch fully into Spanish.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that a lot depends on how good your SO's language ability is in YOUR native language. :-)

[anonymoose]

jbradfor, did you start to learn Mandarin before or after you met you wife, and if after, why did you choose Mandarin rather than Cantonese?

[jbradfor]

After.

As to why Mandarin, looking back 23 years ago, I don't fully remember I felt that everyone should spend some time in a foreign country, and China held the most appeal to me. Hence, Mandarin. Plus, keep in mind that outside some "forcing Chinese language on unwilling ABCs" (my term) classes, I don't think any universities were teaching Cantonese (or at least I didn't find any).

Also, I have to say, being able to speak with her (and her family!) in Cantonese was never a high priority to me. Think badly of me if you will, I'll understand. On one hand I do feel I am missing something: when she is speaking Cantonese to her friends and family, I see a different part of her, a part I don't fully understand. OTOH, getting my Cantonese to that level would be a huge investment in time. Depending on how you count it, I estimate I have spent near 400 days of my life learning Mandarin, and I'm still not very good.

Learning Mandarin, although it wasn't Cantonese, did buy me a lot of (much needed!!) points with her family; studying in Taiwan did, I think, teach me a lot about Chinese culture, which helped our relationship. So in that sense I don't think it was wasted.

[jkhsu]

90% of the reason I've reached the level of fluency I have is because of my wife. She has always been very supportive with my goals. For the first 2 - 3 months we were together (then, just dating) we spoke English. By month 4 or 5, we were only speaking Chinese, and have continued so for the past five years.

Congrats! Do you live in China? To start off speaking English and then switch to Chinese is pretty rare unless your level of Chinese is progressing really well and you happen to live in China. I've noticed that people who actually live in China with SOs who speak little to no English (or the language of the other SO), were able to improve their conversational Mandarin significantly. However, for people who live outside of China (let's say the USA) with spouses who can speak conversational English, it's really hard for their SO to switch back to Chinese just to help the other one out. In my observation, if neither SO is taking the time to really study the other language (either on their own or taking classes), just being together doesn't improve much in terms of learning the other language.

[xianhua]

kdavid, may I ask how often your wife corrects your mistakes (if indeed you still make any?) This is a constant source of friction in our relationship as my wife seldom corrects mine. She maintains that if you constantly correct a person they will lose confidence quickly - and the best way of correcting mistakes is to learn through listening/reading native material (she was a teacher for seven years so is probably right). However, I then feel nervous speaking in front of others as I'm never sure if the sentence is gramatically correct or not. There must be a balance somewhere.

jbradfor, no problem - I usually get the answer "because it's just like that" to those kind of questions. This is usually my response to comparable questions about English too. Rare are those who know their own language.

Oh and since you've only been learning for just over a year and a month- hat's off to you.

[Scoobyqueen]

I agree with the above points especially that is depends on how willing your partner is at teaching you. Mine does correct me but I think it is only because I have specifically asked him to although he does say I appear to be grateful. Anyway, we both live as foreigners in Germany and although we both speak German since it is not our native language we will never be speaking it with each other. It does not come naturally to switch into another language later in the relationship. I am surprised Kdavid managed it. It just would not be enough of an emotional language for us.

(However, he is learning Chinese by osmosis through me going around repeating stuff all the time).

I see a different part of her, a part I don't fully understand.

I seem to remember reading that people take on different identities according to the language they speak. Something about body language but also personality. Maybe someone can verify.

(@xianhua - just saw your Charles de Gaulle tag line. Also ticked that box not once but several times. Not just confusing system but arrogant too.)

[Meng Lelan]

To start off speaking English and then switch to Chinese is pretty rare unless your level of Chinese is progressing really well and you happen to live in China.

It is indeed extremely rare. I've never heard of it.

[jbradfor]

This is a constant source of friction in our relationship as my wife seldom corrects mine. She maintains that if you constantly correct a person they will lose confidence quickly

I think this is a horrible attitude -- sorry if that came across as insulting, but that's my opinion.

Obviously, in the beginning stage, correcting every small error when you are trying to talk is counter-productive. However, correcting, say, the 1-2 biggest errors per week is, I think, the best way to progress.

Oh and since you've only been learning for just over a year and a month- hat's off to you.

You misunderstood. I've been learning Chinese for over 23 years. During those 23 years, I estimate 400 person-days worth of studying, e.g. when I was studying Chinese full time that's 1 person-day per day, when I was taking 1 class out of 4 at school that 0.25 person-days per day, during the 15 years I didn't study that's 0 person-days per day, and now I estimate about 0.02 person-days per day :-)

So assuming I live to be 80, I assume I'll have spent about 2.5% of my life on Chinese. That's a pretty big investment!

[kdavid]

It's super difficult to learn the SO's language when that SO is as competent or more so in your own native language.

I have two opinions on this.

1. Read this article on Sinosplice: http://www.sinosplice.com/life/archives/2010/05/18/language-power-struggles

That article sums up language power struggles very, very well.

2. From a previous poster's experience (with a Spanish husband), this is clearly an issue that occurs world-wide. Yet I feel the Chinese still often see non-Chinese as barbarians who are incapable of learning Mandarin, and as such they don't even try to converse with the other party in Mandarin if the Chinese speaker know even a little English.

Do you live in China? To start off speaking English and then switch to Chinese is pretty rare unless your level of Chinese is progressing really well and you happen to live in China.

Yes. I've been here for five years now. We had to speak English in the beginning as I didn't speak any Chinese when I arrived. My wife's English level has always been very good, and even now that we haven't spoken English in five years, she has no problem picking up and communicating with my family. Her pronunciation is above average, and she rarely makes grammar mistakes.

kdavid, may I ask how often your wife corrects your mistakes (if indeed you still make any?)

According to my wife, I'm mistake-free, both in pronunciation and grammar, about 95% of the time. But when I do make an error, she'll just say something like "不是。。。是。。。“ or ”你不能这么说，最好是说。。。"

I've got thick skin, and speaking Mandarin as well (if not better) than the Chinese has always been one goal of mine. I get pretty angry when she lets an error slip, so she's good at correcting me right away. In some cases, I've actually corrected her!

It is indeed extremely rare. I've never heard of it.

As I tell everyone who inquires, it's all about priorities. My #1 objective in coming to Harbin was to become proficient in Mandarin, and that's what I've done. I continue to devote several hours a day to studying (as I've done for the past five years). In every case of a mixed relationship with friends/colleagues, the husband (foreigner) has not been interested in learning Mandarin, and as such he only speaks English with his wife.

[imron]

She maintains that if you constantly correct a person they will lose confidence quickly - and the best way of correcting mistakes is to learn through listening/reading native material (she was a teacher for seven years so is probably right).

Something you might consider asking her to try is that rather than correcting your mistake, just repeat back a corrected version of what you said before continuing with her reply.

[Meng Lelan]

In every case of a mixed relationship with friends/colleagues, the husband (foreigner) has not been interested in learning Mandarin, and as such he only speaks English with his wife.

Well, yeah, that's obvious, anyone can see that. But that's not what I was referring to. Basically in every case of a mixed relationship that I've seen in the last decade or so, the foreign husband is interested in learning Mandarin but the wife is wanting everything in English, the whole enchilada, never mind that the husband places priority in learning Mandarin. And as for your getting angry at her for slipping a thing or two, that's not a very good way of communicating things in a relationship. You can just say what you want to be done instead of getting mad about it otherwise she's going to clam up sooner or later.

[anonymoose]

Yet I feel the Chinese still often see non-Chinese as barbarians who are incapable of learning Mandarin, and as such they don't even try to converse with the other party in Mandarin if the Chinese speaker know even a little English.

I don't think that's true. A few years ago, everyone was talking about Da Shan and how good his Chinese is. Now there are so many foreigners who speak Chinese that Da Shan is rarely mentioned any more. I don't think foreigner's capacity to learn Chinese is serioulsy brought into question.

I think it's more an issue of expectation. Many Chinese people will start off speaking to foreigners in English, because they expect the foreigner not to be able to speak Chinese, but if the foreigner can demonstrate competence in Chinese, I find that nearly all Chinese people are quite content to switch over to Chinese.

[Lu]

I don't think that's true. A few years ago, everyone was talking about Da Shan and how good his Chinese is. Now there are so many foreigners who speak Chinese that Da Shan is rarely mentioned any more. I don't think foreigner's capacity to learn Chinese is serioulsy brought into question.

Sorry to go somewhat off-topic, but isn't the reason Da Shan was such a hero that nobody expects a foreigner to speak Chinese that well, and so an entire country can be amazed when they see one? I know plenty of Chinese or Taiwanese people with amazing English, and nobody's giving them a tv show.

With the mixed couples I see around me it is the same as Lelan says, I think partly because the woman's English is already better than the man's Chinese, she is more eager to speak English than he is to speak Chinese, and he is a bit lazy.