How alive are other Chinese dialects?

[Takeshi]

I'm just curious how alive various other Chinese dialects are. I am under the impression that Cantonese is a stronger survivor than other dialects because of HK's influence. How much of this is true though? I'm wondering if part of the reason I think this is the case is because of all the media coverage and textbooks etc that you can find from HK.

So how strong are other dialects? What dialects are used among people in common everyday situations? What dialects are used in even more situations? What dialects would only be used to talk to grandparents? What dialects would you expect everyone in an area to speak or expect to understand? What dialects are broadcast on TV and radio and how much of them? (Compared to say Cantonese)

The only other dialect I can think of is Hakka; I've been to a Hakka village once where Hakka usage was basically ubiquitous. (They all allegedly could speak Mandarin though) But I have no idea what the situation would be in Moiyen or something.

The reason I'm asking I guess is because I'm thinking after I learn Cantonese and Mandarin I might be interested in learning some other Chinese dialects, but I'm not sure how possible or useful it would be. (I suppose the next two dialects I'd think of learning would be either Hakka or Hokkien depending on circumstances.)

[rezaf]

In terms of study material and number of learners I think Shanghainese is the next after Cantonese but many dialects are very alive all over China, in smaller cities and towns the only thing that you can hear is dialects. As for Shanghainese, it is slowly getting mixed with Mandarin but there are many waidiren who need to learn it a little bit so that they can work in Shanghai.

[feihong]

Don't forget Minnanhua aka Fujianhua that is still prevalent in Taiwan and the mainland's Fujian province.

[jkhsu]

The reason I'm asking I guess is because I'm thinking after I learn Cantonese and Mandarin I might be interested in learning some other Chinese dialects, but I'm not sure how possible or useful it would be.

My opinion only: If you can master Mandarin and Cantonese, I'd move on to another language outside of Chinese (try Korean or Japanese) rather than focus on another dialect. If there is a particular region of China you know you will spend a lot of time in, then perhaps try to learn their dialect, but in general, there are so many dialects across China that it wouldn't make any sense to learn them. That's why there is Mandarin or the "common language".

[renshanrenhai]

The authority in Shanghai is coming to realize that the Shanghai dialect is far less used in public than it was ten years ago when there were not so many immigrants from other provinces as there are in Shanghai today. The promotion of Putonghua even hurts the inheriting of Shanghai Dialect. Thus, Shanghai Dialect is usually used among natives and at home. The generation of my parents in Shanghai are NOT good at speaking Putonghua and they still talk to people in Shanghai Dialect or in a not standard Putonghua. Generally speaking, among the local people the generation of 1970s' and 1980s' in Shanghai can speak both standard Putonghua and Shanghai Dialect. As to me, i usually talk to local people in dialect while speak standard Putonghua in public.

Speaking Shanghai Dialect is actually not very promoted in public because most of the people in shanghai are not local people, and if one does so in a public site non-local people might feel a sort of culture exclusion or even somewhat discrimination. In the light of this, Shanghai dialect is less used in public than it used to be ; therefore the authority are supporting publishing books to spread Shanghai Dialect and setting up more TV programmes to save Shanghai Dialect.

But if one wants to cut the distance in communication, using dialects is a useful way.

Considering the number of people speaking Minnanhua, i guess it is still alive and will alive but won't be that popular outside Fujian province and Taiwan. My ex-boyfriend is from Fujian province and born in Shanghai but he never talked to me in Shanghai dialect though he can understand Shanghai dialect and, I never attended to learn Minnanhua neither. I attribute this to culture identity.

As to Cantonese, i don't know how many people want to learn it in mainland, but I have a personal interest in Cantonese because the TVB's tv series and movies made by HK have been very popular in Shanghai since i was a kid.

[Takeshi]

Hokkien is clearly not surviving in northern Taiwan, though people say it has more use in southern Taiwan. I've never been there myself, but I remember watching one drama set in southern Taiwan, and basically most of the young people spoke in Mandarin and most of the old people spoke in Hokkien but they seemed to understand each other. Drama probably isn't the best example of real life though so I don't know.

Interesting you say Shanghainese, I was under the impression that it was kinda dead/dying and in a poorer situation compared to other dialects.

Judging from what Sally said it must be true to some extent. Cantonese is spoken in public in Guangzhou all the time and is definitely the dominant language for everyday chatter. l I find that in Guangzhou most of the time I can speak to anyone in Cantonese and they'd understand and have no problem with it even if they can't speak Cantonese and would reply in Mandarin. There is no "exclusion" feel and these sorts of interdialectal conversations happen a lot here, though if the Cantonese speaker can speak half decent Mandarin they usually will try to, but since I'm a foreigner I guess I can pass as "not knowing Mandarin" instead of just looking rude. (Which is true btw, my Mandarin speaking abilities suck.)

As for why I want to learn so many Chinese dialects... well, Mandarin is req'd first of all, and I expect to spend a lot of time in a Cantonese/Hakka area of China, so it would be cool to learn Hakka while I'm at it. My interest in Hokkien is from mostly TW and SG media though. I suppose that's a little less important though. But I might spend a fair bit of time in TW or SG too, though probably not southern TW so I don't know how much use it would be there.

All in all, if I could speak 4 dialects of Chinese, plus Japanese and Korean, then I'd probably have enough knowledge of "meta-Chinese" that I could unconsciously know all/most of the patterns in the language and do historical reconstruction or something in my head. That would be cool. (I already speak Japanese and I do play to pick up Korean one day on top of everything else. Shouldn't be too bad; I expect Korean to be the easiest out of the rest of the languages I'm trying to learn.)

I guess if you go to any random village in China the local dialect will be very much alive in everyday use, but it would probably be a very local dialect.

[anonymoose]

I'd say that dialects are very alive and well (or maybe not so well) all over China. Whilst it is undoubtedly true that the popularisation of Mandarin has eroded the prevalence of dialect somewhat, amongst locals, particularly of the older generation, dialect is often spoken exclusively.

From my observations in Shanghai, most local teenagers are able to speak Shanghainese, even though it is often decried that local kids these days cannot speak dialect. However, I think that the nail in the coffin for Shanghainese might be that this or the next generation becomes so used to speaking Mandarin (since all schooling is done in Mandarin) that they choose to speak Mandarin at home when they have their own families.

One also should not forget that apart from the well-known dialects (Cantonese, Shanghainese, Hokkien, and so on), the reality is that practically every city, especially in the south of China has its own dialect. I'm sure that these dialects will still remain strong, particularly in home life, for another generation or three, but as people become more educated and more mobile, these dialects will likely face the same threats as Shanghainese.

The problem with the preservation of dialect in China is that the government has essentially said dialect is bad and Mandarin is good, and most people have swallowed this. Therefore people generally speak whatever is more convenient (dialect at home and Mandarin in public), and as people become more competent at Mandarin, eventially it will be more convenient to speak Mandarin in all settings. There seems to be little feeling of cultural pride regarding dialect like there is with languages in Europe (or maybe it is just that people have resigned themselves to the fate of dialect), and therefore there is little motivation in the mainstream to promote dialect in any meaningful way.

[rezaf]

It's a fact that Shanghainese people are worried about their language but there are lots of exaggerations among them which are not necessarily true and might just be a reaction to the rapid increase of 外地人. Shanghainese people(上海戶籍）now consist about 60% of the population of Shanghai and they are not fewer than 外地人. It means that the percentage of Shanghainese people has dropped but doesn't necessarily mean that the number of Shanghainese speakers has dropped. Personally I think this huge migrant population has resulted in increasing the learners of Shanghainese but also has caused Shanghainese to get mixed with Mandarin. So I think Shanghainese is not dying but merely changing as it has always been because migrant workers have been coming to this city in big numbers for more than a century. While there is no study material for almost all of the Chinese dialects there are quite a few good books and dvds for Shanghainese which also shows the need for learning it.

Edit: Also I have noticed that a lot of 外地人 who have lived in Shanghai for a few years can easily understand Shanghainese and can take part in conversations using their Mandarin while the other people speak in Shanghainese.

[jkhsu]

There's been a lot of discussion about the Shanghainese dialect in Shanghai. However, Shanghai is a city that you can get by fine knowing only Mandarin, if you are visiting short term. If you plan to live there long term, it would be advantageous to know some Shanghainese so that you can understand people saying things behind your back, etc. etc. But that's the same with any city in China that you plan to live long term in. The reason Shanghai has been singled out is because of the number of people there and the prominence of the city.

(I am totally guessing here because I haven't been to Taiwan; please correct me if I am wrong) I think it's the same with Minnanhua or Taiwanese. You can get by perfectly fine in Taiwan knowing only Mandarin, if you are visiting short term. If you plan to live long term it would be advantageous to know some Minnanhua. However, I actually think compared to Shanghai, you can get by better in Taiwan knowing only Mandarin than in Shanghai (again, totally guessing). My basis is on the fact that the local Shanghainese can pretty much all speak the Shanghainese dialect, while "locals" in Taiwan can consist of those arriving from the Mainland (other than nearby areas such as Fujian) back in the early-mid 1900s because of the revolution and the other locals which consists of those arriving from nearby areas (Fujian, etc.) and the indigenous population.

However, if you go Hong Kong, that's a different story. You would have a tough time just knowing Mandarin and visiting. Hong Kong really feels foreign (compared to other parts of China) to Mandarin visitors. Knowing Mandarin is slightly better than knowing English to get by in Hong Kong but it's not the same as knowing Mandarin in Shanghai or Taiwan. Then when you leave China and go to a Chinatown in the USA for example, you'd better know Cantonese. Sometimes it's better to order food in English than Mandarin in many Cantonese restaurants in the USA.

With Mandarin now being pushed more and more by China, outside of Cantonese (which may be on the decline as well since China took back Hong Kong), learning other dialects when one does not plan to be in that particular place for a long time, starts to not make sense.

[joshuawbb]

Just to add a little bit to the topic, as for Minnanhua, it is as has been said a strongly surviving and prevalant dialect in Fujian and Taiwan. But on top of that, it is also somewhat widespread in areas of the Philippines, Indonesia, Singapore and several other surrounding countries, presumably due to immigration or general influence. Here in Xiamen I've known several from the Philippines and Indonesia who came here speaking no Mandarin but got by well speaking the Minnan they used to speak back home. Minnan is quite an interesting dialect for discussion, and I don't think it's unreasonable to label Minnan an actual language in the same way as Cantonese.

[Matty]

I don't know about the names, but there's some dialects floating around Nanning quite lively-ly. Even with some of the young children who I then have to tell to speak Mandarin so I have some idea what they're saying (possibly about me -- not really).

I've found a number of dialects - as my friends call them - seem to be almost identical to Mandarin and I can understand almost as clearly.

[rezaf]

I've found a number of dialects - as my friends call them - seem to be almost identical to Mandarin and I can understand almost as clearly.

Most of the dialects in the North are from the same family and mutually understandable but I think here dialect refers to the southern dialects which are mostly separate languages from Mandarin.

[Altair]

Aside from Cantonese, are there any other dialects that are frequently used in drama, film, TV programs, or literature of any kind? I think I have heard of the occasional song or TV program in Shanghainese, but is there any more than that?

Also, I think there used to be a long-standing tradition of reading the classics in local dialects using literary pronunciations. Is this tradition kept up anywhere? Is it even done much in Mandarin or Cantonese?

[rezaf]

There is also a lot of Suzhounese 評彈 on one of the channels.

[anonymoose]

Here are some series in Shanghainese:

开心公寓

老娘舅

There are also some others (红茶坊、大城小事、阿庆讲故事) that can probably also be found online if one feels inclined.

[calibre2001]

The closest I have seen is a Chinese funeral where funeral rights were read out in literary hokkien. This dialect is interesting for there are 2 types of reading, one the colloquial reading and the literary reading. Also possible area might be Chinese opera. The type of Cantonese used

in Cantonese opera can be rather archaic.

[xiaocai]

I've found a number of dialects - as my friends call them - seem to be almost identical to Mandarin and I can understand almost as clearly

Most of the dialects in the North are from the same family and mutually understandable

I didn't really understand what people were talking about in Xi'anhua, which is said to be one of the Mandarin dialects, even after having been there for a few times. It would get better if they toned down and carefully chose words closer to standard Mandarin, but I think they are still far from identical and the mutual intelligibility is not effortless at all.

[rezaf]

Unlike the southern dialects which are really different in almost everything, the difference in northern dialects seems to be more in the tones not in the vocabulary. That's why after being exposed to one or two of them for a few weeks, one can almost understand and guess most of them. The key is adapting to the tones. For example in northern Jiangsu (near Shangdong) they tend to pronounce all the "1st tone+2nd tone" words as "3rd tone+2nd tone" so "30" would become san3shi2.

I didn't not really understand what people were talking about in Xi'anhua, which is said to be one of the Mandarin dialects, even after having been there for a few times.

You are right they are still very different from Putonghua but probably if you were from somewhere in the North like Shandong or Henan it wouldn't take that much effort to understand them.

[xiaocai]

I think the more North you go, the closer their dialect sounds to Mandarin, except for a few places such as 山西 and, well I don't know. But I was a bit surprised that someone said that it is also the case in Nanning, because as far as I know it is well in the Cantonese speaking zone...

[Takeshi]

Yea, I was mainly thinking about Southern dialects when I asked that question. Northern dialects are different in that they form a continuum with standard Mandarin (or I assume they do) so they basically will probably never die out from casual use.

When you bring up the literary Hokkien, I should say I'm also interested in the "literary forms" of the southern dialects.

In the modern day in HK, people say that "written/formal Chinese is the same as Mandarin, it just can be read with Cantonese sounds" And in most cases this seems to be the case. I find it hard to believe that this has traditionally been happening. Even in modern HK some people may notice some forms of expression are more common there than on the mainland, and a lot of them I assume are influenced by classical chinese or something. What exactly was formal Cantonese like before Mandarin? Is it still in use?

In Guangzhou on the other hand, I am under the impression that formal Cantonese pretty much doesn't exist and real Mandarin (with Mandarin readings) is used instead.