了: le or liao and 长: chang or zhang and 着: zhe, zhao, etc. - how to tell the difference?

[trisha2766]

I'm reading some children's books and have come across some 了's and 长's and 着's that I'm not sure how to pronounce.

1) 了

For example, this phrase: 快憋不住了

I'm thinking the 了 is le and that the 住 is a resultative complement and 不 is negating the verb. Or is it negating a potential complement. Either way - grammar terms confuse me - is it a le?

In this one:

我家的马桶太大坐不了 (in case you are wondering, its a book for kids learning to use the potty)

given where the 不 is, I'm guessing the 了 is liao3. It wouldn't make sense to negate a le. Is that correct?

Any tips on how to tell which 了 you are looking at? A 不 right before it seems like one way. Are there expressions I should know about that contain 了 pronounced other that le?

2) 长

长's give me problems now and then. In this one:

我的嘴里长着...牙齿

I'm guessing its zhang3 and the 着 is zhe so they are saying something like 'Growing inside my mouth are ... teeth' . Feels awkward to me though. But then I don't think I'm yet in a place with Chinese where I can say how something 'feels' grammar wise. Maybe its because I don't think of teeth as growing, but this is a children's book.

Are there expressions I should know about that contain 长 pronounced in a non-obvious way?

3) 着

有着长长鼻子的会是谁呢?

At least the 长 is obvious to me in this one - its in a section about animals and part of an image of an elephant is showing. They have a whole set of similar questions. So is the 着 a zhe? So they are kind of saying 'Having a long nose could be who?' That's not a good translation, but I guess the 有着 is like 'having'.

Again, are there any common or not so common expressions with or uses of 着 that I should know about that may use a non-obvious pronunciation for着?

I was really thrown off once with 睡着. I really thought they were saying 'sleeping', with the 着/zhe behaving as an 'ing'. Luckily I had the opportunity to go through the book with a native speaker who set me straight. I worry about how many similar mistakes I may be making and then reading these books to my daughter incorrectly.

[Epickyle]

Hey Trisha,

I'm having a similar problem. Have just started using the "flashcards deluxe" app on my iPhone and in the card set "3000 most used characters" these 3 characters you mention are within the first 100. Initially I just ignored the extra meanings because with pinyin it wasn't an issue but some clarification would be good so I know what to learn and not get into any bad habits!

[renzhe]

1) 快憋不住了

了 is le, indicating a change of state. 不+住 is a complement

verb + 不/得 + verb is the pattern. The second verb complements the first

"soon won't be able to control/suppress it any more"

我家的马桶太大坐不了

Here 了 is liao3, and is itself a verb, 不了 is a complement.

不了 means roughly "not manage to do something", 得了 is the opposite.

The verb liao3 will usually appear as a complement in modern Mandarin, so you should keep an eye out on 不了 and 得了.

There are some notable exceptions, such as 得了 (= déle on its own) and 了不起 (= liǎobuqǐ)

2) Yes, 长着 is zhang3zhe, the zhe after the verb is a give-away.

It's one of these tricky things where you really need the context. The grammar of the sentence will tell you whether 长 is an adjective (chang2) or verb (zhang3).

A very common phrase (but not word) is 长得 = zhang3de

3) " but I guess the 有着 is like 'having'. "

You're right, it does.

着 is a tricky one, with 4 pronunciations off the top of my head. It will take a while to get all of them, but it is most commonly either zhe or zhao2. The zhao2 is usually used in a complement phrase described above, in a way very similar to 了 (liao3).

verb + 得着 = manage to do something; verb + 不着 = not manage to do something

If used as a main verb, it's usually zhuo2, and means 'wear'.

[creamyhorror]

There are some notable exceptions, such as 得了 (= déle on its own)

And there's also 不得了 (bu4 de2 liao3).

[trisha2766]

Thanks renzhe and creamyhorror! Now I need to find some way to remember all this - I think these will have to go in my 'special' section of flashcards. The place for words and phrase that are especially tricky to remember.

[rezaf]

These things are well explained in good student dictionaries. I suggest that you write down the examples from the dictionary side by side and compare them.

[trisha2766]

rezaf - I could use some suggestions for a good dictionary.

I have 2 dictionaries - 1) Oxford Pocket (but it could never fit in a pocket) and 2) Oxford Minidictionary.

I like the minidictionary better because for many words it gives sample sentences that are in English, characters and pinyin and they are nice simple sentences. But it doesn't have enough words in it. The bigger one doesn't have sample sentences or enough pinyin and English.

Can anyone suggest a good dictionary with lots of sample sentences so I can learn how to actually use the words? And also in characters, pinyin and English. If possible I'd prefer one with more emphasis on American English too, rather than British.

I haven't found bookstores around here that have many dictionaries and online you can rarely see sample entries to really know what you are buying.

[trisha2766]

Has anyone tried this one - http://www.chinasprout.com/shop/BLD090 - looks like it might not be too bad.

[rezaf]

Now I use 现代汉语学习词典 but it's not for beginners. Before I used to use 学汉语用例词典， it's a very incomplete dictionary in terms of the number of words and characters but the examples are very good and clear, also it explains and compares words when necessary but doesn't have the translation of the examples and the explanations in English. Anyway probably others have better suggestions.

[imron]

The ABC Chinese-English Dictionary sounds pretty much like what you're after. You can buy a paper version of it, however if you have a iPod/iPhone, I'd really recommend getting something like Pleco, which has this available as an add-on dictionary. Best of all, it actually *does* fit in a pocket