To what extent does buddhism influence chinese culture?

[ludwick]

To what extent does buddhism influence chinese culture? I understand the question might very well be answered with a treatise, on the other hand if anyone were ever to ask me to explain how cristianity has affected western/european culture, I reckon I'd be able to answer pretty concisely and still quite accurately.

In particular, I'm interested in the contrast between what seems to me a fairly materialistic society and buddhism considering craving as the root of suffering. Someone may say "Yeah, well, jesus didn't exactly encourage greed and covetousness either but money, for instance, does play an important role in western society as well", right no doubt about that, but at least ideally a fulfilled life in the west involves stuff like love, morality, creativity, fulfilling career meaning you love doing what you do, etcetera, etcetera. I'm not saying that's what actually happens, I'm saying that's what people are often told or dream of, the fact they don't usually live according to those values is a whole other story. And just so we're clear, obviously I'm not saying chinese have no morality, chinese don't fall in love, chinese aren't creative.

My assumption may be wrong, but I personally spent a year in Hong Kong as an exchange-student, living day by day with a host family and studying in a local high-school, and I was really impressed by how much emphasis they put on money, it kind of looked like an obsession from a foreign perspective. Considering western sterotypical views on east-asia, like you know, a place filled with spirituality and wisdom or something (like it or not, that's western default-setting and mine too), well, I was pretty shocked.

Is there anyone willing to clear up my mind? Thank you.

[yonglin]

Sorry, I don't know a great deal about buddhism, but I used to be an exchange student in HK in high school too! (Were you with AFS...?) I think that the discord that you are describing have as much to do with generational as it has to do with cultural differences.

At least up until the second world war, most people (also in the west) were really quite poor, at least on an absolute scale. For example, almost no one travelled abroad, dining out was rare or unheard of, and most people only owned a few changes of clothes. However, each generation could be quite sure that if they only worked hard enough, they could improve their own living standard and be better off than their parents' generation. From a historical perspective, I would say that it's only very recently that the average person in the west have started being concerned with things like spiritual or artistic development, obtaining a work-life balance, and obtaining a "fulfilling" career that you love. For example, these were certainly not major concerns for my parents' generation, most of whom were more concerned with securing the financial stability to raise their family, for example. I'd say these are still sort of middle-class sort of concerns (for example, I'd bet a lot of the working poor think more about how to feed their kids than how to develop their kids' artistic talents). I think some people might even say that only after people don't foresee any material betterment for themselves (how many times have we heard that we'll be the first generation that will be worse off than our parents?) will they start caring about these things. (I don't agree with this, though.)

The point is that only when people have fulfilled their basic material needs will they have time to look into things like those above. In China, people have been very poor until just very recently. Hong Kong has not been rich for very long either (it wasn't many decades ago that manufacturing sweatshops were taken down, for example). In places with large income inequalities, such as China, HK, or the US, there is always a possibility of again becoming very poor (at least in relative terms), which I think also contributes to people on average being more concerned with money compared to other places.

With respect to your thought that Chinese people somehow lack in love or morality, I think you're just wrong. What sort of situations are you thinking about? It may well be that these take a slightly different shape than what you're used to. In particular, Chinese culture faces a very strong emphasis on the family (rather than, say, society or the the community) compared to most western cultures. For example, a very large number of Chinese people would find western people entirely lacking in love and morality when they utterly fail (in their opinion) to take care for their ageing parents by putting them in someone else's care. Similarly, some Chinese people would probably think that abandoning a boring but stable job that can support your family in order to pursue your personal (spirital, artisitc, etc.) goals is selfish and immoral. You may or may not agree.

I'm not saying that buddhist thought has not influenced Chinese culture, but I think your first stop to understanding Chinese culture should be confucianist works.

[ludwick]

I am going to answer thoroughly in a while, I just want to point out I've never even remotely thought chinese have no morality, you may want to read my first post again because I explicitly said that I'm not trying to say chinese have no morality. I'm only trying to understand without being judgmental.

And yes, I'm an AFSer, too! When did you go to HK?

[rezaf]

Generally speaking Chinese society on the surface is very earthly and probably being loyal to one's parents 孝順父母is the highest spiritual value in the general Chinese culture and also the limit. Buddhism, daoism, yijing,... all exsit in china but for the general society going to temples just means praying for making more money, being safe from bad luck, fortune telling,... Although nowadays all that remains of these philosophies is mostly just superficial stuff or 騙人 stuff, I think very spiritual paths still exist in china, the fact that you don't hear about them is because Chinese society is complicated and has many layers and in deeper layers it is very conservative and people who really acheive high levels don't and can't preach these things using superficial words like what the priests, mullas ... do in other religions.

[yellowpower]

which culture on the planet is not materialistic or obessed with money? This the the march of the centuries part and an ingrained part of the human psyche. Called it survival, we're all in the rat race to win. There are many countries both advanced, developing countries which have established world religions/influences/traditions, but still unable to escape from the grip of all that glitters is gold....from the shores of USA, France, Greece, Italy, China, Hong Kong, Japan, Spain, Portugal, India, Dubai, etc ...money makes the world round. Govts all sing the great mantra of endless economic growth and consumption.

Money is not bad, it's GREED that destroys and distorts.

[rezaf]

which culture on the planet is not materialistic or obessed with money?

I think the OP clearly mentioned that he doesn't think the western world is perfect but certainly there are degrees of being materialistic. I agree that now the whole world is in a phase of crazy materialistic obsessions but probably in societies that have a history of religions like Christianity or Islam which more or less promote simplicity in earthly life and aiming for the life after death people at least have been taught to think simplicity and spirituality as better things although they do the opposite in their lives but China has never even had that kind of religion and Buddhist or Daoist teachings have never been that influential for the general Chinese society.

I think earning money to feed one's family is very respectful but I have never seen this kind of endless obsession with money and luxury goods (like LV bag, blahblah watch and other 暴发户stuff) in any other country that I have been to before(except for UAE, but those guys are super rich so it doesn't really count as much of an obsession) be it richer than China or poorer than China like my own country.

Anyway this is just my own views based on my very limited knowledge about a few cities in China but in my friends and on the internet I have noticed there are many young Chinese people who are really fed up with these over-emphasizing money by their parents and can feel the vacuum in their lives, so probably this phase will be over in the future and things will get more balanced.

[c_redman]

Treating money as a status symbol has appeared in the formerly Communist countries of Eastern Europe. After decades under the yolk of everybody being nearly equally poor, after the fall of Communism suddenly their monetary worth is something that can be compared with their neighbors and coworkers, and can be improved on with enough effort or corruption. It's not at all pervasive, just very noticeable when someone lives in a house that seems excessively large or drives a tricked-out Hummer that can't even fit in parking spaces designed for small European cars. Some of it could also be somewhat due to the habit of buying goods and real estate as a better hedge against inflation than cash savings, but that alone doesn't explain conspicuous consumption.