rezaf Posted August 31, 2011 at 12:52 PM Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 12:52 PM This guy pauses a lot but anyway have a look at it, he is apparently teaching how to pronounce the super standard j q x: http://www.tudou.com...iew/ktea9SzfvpI At 16:45 he emphasizes on avoiding the southern j q x
creamyhorror Posted August 31, 2011 at 12:52 PM Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 12:52 PM @creamy: That is a little bit Southern for me. Compare it to this one: http://www.zdic.net/...dicA5ZdicBF.htm Good example, to me that zdic one is close to perfect. And crucially, it's noticeably different from English 'she'. Now listed to sha1 from the same site: http://www.zdic.net/...dic9DZdic80.htm Doesn't that sound like English "sh"?
anonymoose Posted August 31, 2011 at 12:53 PM Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 12:53 PM I don't think there's much real tongue-curl in the English, but there is in the Chinese, no? I think tongue-curl is influenced by the final. Sure, there is tongue-curl in pinyin shi, but does the tongue curl as much saying shu?
renzhe Posted August 31, 2011 at 12:58 PM Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 12:58 PM Yes, the amount of curling varies, but with 'sh', you touch the palate with the tip of the tongue, or the area directly around the tip. With 'x', you touch with the top surface of the tongue. I think that creamyhorror's description of 's + y' is spot on. The tip of my tongue actually touches the lower teeth when I pronounce 'x', not the palate. You can approximate the 'x' sound by touching with the tip and making it 'softer' until it roughly sounds right, but I imagine that you'll have problems in the long run.
Guest realmayo Posted August 31, 2011 at 01:19 PM Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 01:19 PM Yes I agree, which is why I think that "sh" in pinyin is closer to "sh" in English than is pinyin "x".
rezaf Posted August 31, 2011 at 01:47 PM Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 01:47 PM Now listed to sha1 from the same site:http://www.zdic.net/...dic9DZdic80.htm Doesn't that sound like English "sh"? Sha yes but not Shi: http://www.zdic.net/...dicAFZdic97.htm OK it sometimes is sometimes isn't. Let's not think about it too much.
rezaf Posted August 31, 2011 at 02:32 PM Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 02:32 PM I think creamyhorror will soon convince me to speak English like this: Audio Recording 38.mov
creamyhorror Posted August 31, 2011 at 03:22 PM Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 03:22 PM http://www.tudou.com...iew/ktea9SzfvpIAt 16:45 he emphasizes on avoiding the southern j q x I can't access that video, but it should be the same as this following one on Youtube. He doesn't actually say "southern" jqx, just 方言 jqx (and his example sounds like HK/Cantonese-influenced pronunciations - sei instead of xi). And even his "mixed" example for x doesn't sound that wrong. But have a listen to the 再别康桥 poem read out by his demonstrator: http://www.youtube.c...etailpage#t=50s Take note of her 西天 and 衣袖; they're clearly not 'sh', but sharper/crisper. Even the professor doesn't use a thick 'sh' for his xias, xiangs, xians and so forth. I think creamyhorror will soon convince me to speak English like this: The number of them aside, the 'sh's sound correct OK it sometimes is sometimes isn't. Let's not think about it too much. I've just about satisfied myself that standard xi doesn't sound like English 'she', so I'll drop the subject too heh. There is a bit of a "h" sound in there, but it's ever so slight, not like the strong 'sh' in English. Let me know if anyone wants to go at this topic some more
jkhsu Posted August 31, 2011 at 04:11 PM Author Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 04:11 PM Just what I had expected. I wake up and this thread is going crazy. After reading through this I still believe this to be true for me: 1. The beginning Mandarin "x" sound in “心" (pin:xin) sounds like the beginning sound in the English "shin", "shingles", "shilling", etc. They are not exactly the same of course, but closer than the how the pinyin "shi" or "she" would be pronounced in Mandarin. 2. The beginning Mandarin "x" sound in "西" (pin:xi) sounds like the beginning sound in the English "she", "ship", "shin", etc. Again, definitely not exactly the same but closer than how the pinyin "shi" or "she" would be pronounced in Mandarin. 3. If I wanted to approximate the English pronounciation of "shah" I would use the beginning of "虾" (pinyin: xia) and the ending of “沙" (pinyin: sha). I've ran this by native Speakers in China and heritage Speakers in the USA and I've gotten agreements. Again, these are my opinions and they are just opinions. For learners, I highly suggest asking your Chinese teacher and/or Chinese native speakers to correct you on the "sh" and "x" sounds. While similarities to your native language do exist, it's best to just say the "sh" and "x" sounds correctly, based on how native Chinese would say them.
jkhsu Posted August 31, 2011 at 05:15 PM Author Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 05:15 PM Adding: Fastforward to 3:20 seconds in this video where she shows how "x" is similar to "sh" Similarily, this is exactly how I pronounce "sh". Fastforward to 2:40 where she says there is a slight touch between your tongue and hard palete. I agree with this video 100%
renzhe Posted August 31, 2011 at 05:21 PM Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 05:21 PM How many languages do you speak, jkhsu? It's possible that you don't hear a big difference, although it is there. To my ears, they are not even close.
creamyhorror Posted August 31, 2011 at 05:23 PM Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 05:23 PM Firstly, jkhsu, thanks for your kind comments in your previous message - they're much appreciated. I've ran this by native Speakers in China and heritage Speakers in the USA and I've gotten agreements. The trouble is that we haven't had good recordings of an "official" pronunciation of pinyin xi which sounds clearly like English 'she' to the rest of us. Nor do we have recordings that show that pinyin sha differs from English 'shah'. If you could point us to sample recordings that support your points (rather than refer to discussions with native speakers), it would help clear things up. For reference, here is my comparison of the various syllables English sh, pinyin xi, pinyin sha, pinyin xia, English sh, pinyin xin, showing the distinctions in how I pronounce them. Comments or corrections are welcome. Fastforward to 3:20 seconds in this video where she shows how "x" is similar to "sh" She says 'x' is similar to 'sh', but pronounces it differently. Take a look at 0:34 on that video: She pronounces the xi in ji qi xi clearly 'syee' with a slight touch of 'h'. It really doesn't sound like English 'she' (to me anyway). But I surmise many Chinese people learning English are taught that the two sounds are similar.
jkhsu Posted August 31, 2011 at 05:30 PM Author Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 05:30 PM @creamyhorror - I'm reposting this. I'm so happy because I have finally found something that I do agree with 100%. At least all of you don't think I'm out of my mind or something. Fastforward to 3:20 seconds in this video where she shows how "x" is similar to "sh" Similarily, this is exactly how I pronounce "sh". Fastforward to 2:40 where she says there is a slight touch between your tongue and hard palete. I agree with this video 100%
jkhsu Posted August 31, 2011 at 05:37 PM Author Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 05:37 PM It really doesn't sound like English 'she'. I think the point that she is making (and I am trying to make as well) is that "x" is closer to the "sh" sound in English. Yes, I agree "xi" is not the same as "she" but it's similar, especially the "sh" sound. Also, she specifically makes the point in the video that the "x" sound is similar to the "sh" sound. Why would you just ignore that?
renzhe Posted August 31, 2011 at 05:40 PM Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 05:40 PM Similarily, this is exactly how I pronounce "sh". Fastforward to 2:40 where she says there is a slight touch between your tongue and hard palete. 'X' is a voiceless alveolo-palatal sibilant, the link describes very carefully how it is pronounced.
creamyhorror Posted August 31, 2011 at 05:44 PM Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 05:44 PM Also, she specifically makes the point in the video that the "x" sound is similar to the "sh" sound. Why would you just ignore that? Because it's the point we're debating, and I haven't accepted her as a linguistic authority yet. Maybe that guy on the 标准普通话 videos would count. Also, as I said, I surmise many Chinese people learning English are [probably incorrectly] taught that the two sounds are similar. Yes, I agree "xi" is not the same as "she" but it's similar, especially the "sh" sound. Right, so the question is whether pinyin xi is closer to English 'sh' than pinyin sh is. To most English speakers here I daresay it wouldn't be... 'X' is a voiceless alveolo-palatal sibilant, the link describes very carefully how it is pronounced. That audio makes it sound pretty much like English 'sh', though. That's the trouble - where's the source linguistic paper that identifies pinyin x as a voiceless alveolo-palatal sibilant? For which group of speakers? And is that audio correct?
jkhsu Posted August 31, 2011 at 05:52 PM Author Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 05:52 PM For reference, here is my comparison of the various syllables English sh, pinyin xi, pinyin sha, pinyin xia, English sh, pinyin xin, showing the distinctions in how I pronounce them. Comments or corrections are welcome. I actually agree with everything you said in the recording and your Mandarin pronounciation is right on as far as I can tell. However, when you say "does that sound like...", you're comparing the ending sound. The ending sound of any English word beginning with "sh" is different from the Mandarin "xin". There really isn't a comparable word for that. I'm just talking about the very beginning sound. Even when I listen to your recording, the very beginning of "xin" sounds the same as the English "shore".
creamyhorror Posted August 31, 2011 at 06:05 PM Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 06:05 PM Even when I listen to your recording, the very beginning of "xin" sounds the same as the English "shore". Okay, they sound clearly different to me (and I pronounce their opening consonants quite differently). If they sound the same to you then I guess that's that. Here's an awesomely clear example of pronunciation - the CCTV news. Recording quality is superb, and the sharpness of x is quite apparent: http://english.cntv....24/110153.shtml Listen from 0:21 - 实施新的铁路运行图。The contrast between the opening consonants in shi and xin is clear and crisp.
renzhe Posted August 31, 2011 at 06:06 PM Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 06:06 PM That's the trouble - where's the source linguistic paper that identifies pinyin x as a voiceless alveolo-palatal sibilant? Is this one good enough? See, for example, page 31 and the IPA transcription of 'xuan3' (the very end of the page) -- he uses IPA throughout. I mean, jkhsu is right that 'x' sounds somewhat like English 'sh', and that it is often presented as such to completely new learners without much exposure to foreign languages, let alone IPA. 's', 'x', 'sh', 'y' and others are all somewhat like English 'sh'. It's just that pinyin 'sh' is much closer than the rest, both in how it sounds and in how it is produced. Just a quick test: Try pronouncing "xiao3xin1" and then "shut up!" using the same initial and see how close it is.
jkhsu Posted August 31, 2011 at 06:14 PM Author Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 06:14 PM I'm going to repost this link because I think think this may be a key point. When you are saying "sh" in Mandarin, do you have that "slight touch between your tongue and hard palate"? If you do, how can this sound anything like the English "sh" sound in words like "shore, ship, shin, shilling, etc." where there is no touch between the tip of your tongue and your palate? Fastforward to 2:40 where she says there is a slight touch between your tongue and hard palate. I have heard some people say "sh" in Mandarin without touching their tongue on their palate. I've seen this with non-Native beginners and mostly native Cantonese speakers. If you do it this way then I can see how the Mandarin "sh" is similar to the English "sh". Otherwise, if you touch your palate, I don't see how this can be the case.
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