jkhsu Posted August 31, 2011 at 06:26 PM Author Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 06:26 PM Here's an awesomely clear example of pronunciation - the CCTV news. Recording quality is superb, and the sharpness of x is quite apparent: http://english.cntv....24/110153.shtml Listen from 0:21 - 实施新的铁路运行图。The contrast between the opening consonants in shi and xin is clear and crisp. Agreed that in that example, there is a slight "s" sound in there. Like I said, I never agreed they were exactly the same, I just said similar (which can mean different things to different people). Now try listening to :35 seconds in the video where she pronounces "进行". When I hear "行" (pinyin: xing), it sounds more closer to the "sh" sound in English without as much of "s" sound but it's still there. I actually don't think we're really in much of a disagreement here. I think the biggest disagreement is that the Mandarin "sh" sounds more close to the English "sh" than the Mandarin "x" sound.
jkhsu Posted August 31, 2011 at 06:37 PM Author Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 06:37 PM It's just that pinyin 'sh' is much closer than the rest, both in how it sounds and in how it is produced. Did you see my post #60 about touching the tongue on the palate for the "sh" sound? Is this how you pronounce "sh"? If so, how is pronouncing "shore" similar? Just a quick test: Try pronouncing "xiao3xin1" and then "shut up!" using the same initial and see how close it is. I agree with you on this. That shows the difference in "x" and "sh". To me the "sh" sound in English comes from further back in the mouth than the "x" in Mandarin. That's why sometimes there is a slight "s" in the "x" Mandarin pronounciation which I agree with. So yes, they are different but similar in some ways. We're just now disagreeing on which is closer I guess.
renzhe Posted August 31, 2011 at 06:49 PM Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 06:49 PM The main question is which part of the tongue touches the palate: the tip, the back, or the blade.
jkhsu Posted August 31, 2011 at 06:58 PM Author Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 06:58 PM For me it's the tip of the tongue and it's a slight touch that releases once I finish pronouncing the character. I do this with ch, zh, and sh.
renzhe Posted August 31, 2011 at 07:00 PM Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 07:00 PM Where is the tip of your tongue when you pronounce 'x' and the English 'sh'?
jkhsu Posted August 31, 2011 at 07:07 PM Author Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 07:07 PM When pronouncing pinyin "x" and English "sh", the tip of my tongue does not touch the top of my palate.
renzhe Posted August 31, 2011 at 07:45 PM Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 07:45 PM What does it touch? It should be close to your lower teeth when pronouncing 'x', and the air is pushed between the palate and the back of your tongue. The tip of your tongue is nowhere near the palage. At least that's what I was taught (see the Wiki link I posted), and that's why it's so close to 's' -- it is essentially an 's' with an arched tongue. This is also reflected in, for example, Wade-Giles (hs) and Tongyong Pinyin (sy). I find it hard to say 'shore' like that. With any variation of 'sh', even very soft ones, the tip of your tongue is somewhere behind your upper teeth. Whether it touches or not. I touch the palate when saying 'shore', FWIW. But this would make an interesting poll -- how do people pronounce 'x'? We're heading towards another 'yong' vs. 'üeng' discussion here.
renzhe Posted August 31, 2011 at 07:59 PM Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 07:59 PM Sorry for the double post, but I'm having trouble editing (I'll post a bug report in a different thread). Here is ChinesePod explaining exactly what I'm rambling about, only better. Here, what they is saying, that's what I'm trying to say, with diagrams for the tongue position: http://chinesepod.com/tools/pronunciation/section/10 Here is John from Sinosplice explaining the same: http://www.sinosplice.com/learn-chinese/pronunciation-of-mandarin-chinese/4 1
jkhsu Posted August 31, 2011 at 08:00 PM Author Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 08:00 PM I touch the palate when saying 'shore', FWIW. The side of your tongue or tip? I can't see how you can pronounce "sh" in English touching the tip of your tongue on your palate.
renzhe Posted August 31, 2011 at 08:11 PM Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 08:11 PM The blade (top of the tongue just behind the tip). Touch the palate lightly just behind your upper teeth (alveolar ridge), not dig it into the palate. I think that there is quite a bit of room for variation there, while still pronouncing correctly.
jkhsu Posted August 31, 2011 at 08:28 PM Author Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 08:28 PM This is the part that I don't agree with John from Sinosplice A good way to learn to say the very important Chinese word shi is to start to say the English word “shirt” but stop right as the “r” sound is beginning. Once you can say shi, apply that vowel sound also to pinyin si, ci, chi, zi, zhi, ri. You're basically in two camps. Do you touch your tongue tip to your palate when pronouncing sh, zh, ch or not? If you do what John says, you make the mandarin "shi" sound something in between "she" and "sure". A lot of Cantonese natives I know do this when speaking Mandarin. Edit: My experience with Cantonese natives is at Cantonese / Hong Kong restaurants when ordering food in Mandarin.
jkhsu Posted August 31, 2011 at 11:29 PM Author Report Posted August 31, 2011 at 11:29 PM Alright, I am signing out of this discussion. Here are my takeaways: - Mandarin "x" and English "sh" are different. - Mandarin "sh" and English "sh" are different. - Some think Mandarin "x" is more similar to English "sh" while others think Mandarin "sh" is closer to English "sh". The best thing is listen to a lot of native Speakers, have native Speakers correct you if necessary and record / listen to yourselves. Thank you imron for creating this thread, rezaf, creamyhorror, and renzhe. I never expected to spend so much time on this topic. While I still believe that Mandarin "x" sounds closer to the English "sh", I have been enlightened to see more of the differences, especially with the slight "s" sounds in the Mandarin "x". @creamyhorror, remind me not to disagree with you next time. This is too tiring. 1
rezaf Posted September 1, 2011 at 12:02 AM Report Posted September 1, 2011 at 12:02 AM Alright, I am signing out of this discussion. Here are my takeaways:- Mandarin "x" and English "sh" are different. - Mandarin "sh" and English "sh" are different. - Some think Mandarin "x" is more similar to English "sh" while others think Mandarin "sh" is closer to English "sh". The best thing is listen to a lot of native Speakers, have native Speakers correct you if necessary and record / listen to yourselves. Thank you imron for creating this thread, rezaf, creamyhorror, and renzhe. I never expected to spend so much time on this topic. While I still believe that Mandarin "x" sounds closer to the English "sh", I have been enlightened to see more of the differences, especially with the slight "s" sounds in the Mandarin "x". @creamyhorror, remind me not to disagree with you next time. This is too tiring. And also remember to correct your English "sh" as I did.
creamyhorror Posted September 1, 2011 at 02:58 PM Report Posted September 1, 2011 at 02:58 PM - Mandarin "sh" and English "sh" are different. I guess I've always pronounced them pretty much the same way (when doing proper pronunciation, not Southern-style 'light' sh). That's why I've been so certain they were close in this discussion. Thank you imron for creating this thread, rezaf, creamyhorror, and renzhe. I never expected to spend so much time on this topic. While I still believe that Mandarin "x" sounds closer to the English "sh", I have been enlightened to see more of the differences, especially with the slight "s" sounds in the Mandarin "x". And thank you for engaging us in discussion, even if we haven't come to a clear consensus. I think part of our discussion stemmed from having different pronunciations of English 'sh', so we naturally came to different conclusions. @creamyhorror, remind me not to disagree with you next time. This is too tiring. Oh, but where would the fun be if people didn't debate things out to the end? And also remember to correct your English "sh" as I did. You didn't say anything about that before...were you pronouncing English 'sh' like pinyin x? Now it makes sense
Demonic_Duck Posted September 1, 2011 at 03:14 PM Report Posted September 1, 2011 at 03:14 PM Would I be right in thinking that pinyin "sh" is identical to Russian «ш», whilst pinyin "x" is identical to Russian «щ»?
rezaf Posted September 1, 2011 at 03:33 PM Report Posted September 1, 2011 at 03:33 PM were you pronouncing English 'sh' like pinyin x? I don't think so but you guys are welcome to correct my pronunciation. The first one is in English, the second one is in Chinese. Audio Recording 41.mov Audio Recording 44.mov
anonymoose Posted September 1, 2011 at 03:40 PM Report Posted September 1, 2011 at 03:40 PM I thought your English pronunciation was very good. As for the Chinese, well I'm not a native speaker, but I think you should slow down a bit and try and pronounce each syllable more clearly with more defined tones.
rezaf Posted September 1, 2011 at 03:44 PM Report Posted September 1, 2011 at 03:44 PM OK here is a slower version of the Chinese one. Audio Recording 46.mov
creamyhorror Posted September 1, 2011 at 03:47 PM Report Posted September 1, 2011 at 03:47 PM I don't think so but you guys are welcome to correct my pronunciation. The first one is in English, the second one is in Chinese. Well, gonna go right ahead then "谁是这所学校的校长" (is that right?) I'd say the tones for 这所 should be zhe4 suo3. Also, the 'o' in suo could be more emphasised. English sounds good.
rezaf Posted September 1, 2011 at 03:55 PM Report Posted September 1, 2011 at 03:55 PM Thanks, as long as my x, sh(E) and sh© are OK I can 睡 peacefully at the 西shore as it's getting late.
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