媳 sells 稀 shells by the 西 shore

[renzhe]

Would I be right in thinking that pinyin "sh" is identical to Russian «ш», whilst pinyin "x" is identical to Russian «щ»?

Close.

Pinyin 'sh' and Russian 'ш' are [ʂ]

Pinyin 'x' is [ɕ].

English 'sh' is [ʃ].

Russian 'щ' can apparently sometimes be pronounced like [ɕ], and sometimes as [ɕɕ].

[ʂ]: http://en.wikipedia....roflex_sibilant

[ɕ]: http://en.wikipedia....alatal_sibilant

[ʃ]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palato-alveolar_sibilant

With [ʃ] and [ʂ], the tongue position is similar, the difference is whether it is rolled all the way back behind the alveolar ridge or not. With [ɕ], the tongue position is different.

Keep in mind that there is an acceptable range of variation within most languages.

I should have studied linguistics, I find all of this very interesting :/

[Demonic_Duck]

With [ʃ] and [ʂ], the tongue position is similar, the difference is whether it is rolled all the way back behind the alveolar ridge or not.

Interesting that you say this, as for me the tip of the tongue is in a completely different position, yet the sound produced is very similar (or sounds similar to my ear). When I first started learning Russian, I pronounced «ш» as an English "sh" and didn't get much criticism for it from native speakers, who presumably couldn't tell much difference.

[jkhsu]

There is a quote from the Godfather movie part 3: "Every time I try to get out, they pull me back in."

I think part of our discussion stemmed from having different pronunciations of English 'sh', so we naturally came to different conclusions.

@creamyhorror, I actually don't think that's the problem. Most people who know English, can pronounce the "sh" sound in English correctly. I thought rezaf did a fine job in his pronounciation of the English "sh" sound. The problem is that native Chinese pronounce "sh" and "x" differently. I think we all know that just about every native Chinese has some regional accent. Some examples:

In Shanghai, the Shanghainese pronounciation of 西 is very similar to Mandarin. I would even venture to say that many Shanghainese would use how they typically pronounce the Shanghainese 西 when speaking Mandarin, with some minor adjustments. However, the Shanghainese 西 is much closer to the English "sh" sound than say the CCTV example link you sent. The point I am trying to make is that some native Chinese, depending on their regional dialect influence, may pronounce the Mandarin "xi" closer to the English "sh" than others.

Similarily many native Mandarin speakers may pronounce the Mandarin "sh" as "s" (i.e. in Taiwan and with Shanghainese natives also). I believe this is incorrect but it's done often enough that it's taken as a "de facto" ok. I might even suggest that if you are trying to pronounce the Mandarin "sh" sound correctly but can't, it's better to make the mistake of saying "s" than the English "sh". Check out how Jay Chou says the Mandarin "sh" sounds. He uses "s" quite often; so does the announcer and Wang Lee Hom actually to some extent.

Here's a link from someone who agrees with me:

http://au.answers.ya...03024149AAt2ke7

Excerpt: I actually like how this person tried to explain how Mandarin "sh" sound is pronounced. The key is to use both the "r" and "sh" sounds not just "sh".

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"x" in pinyin is the same as "sh" in english, eg. sheep, shake!

"sh" in pinyin is a sound not found in english. It is when you roll your tongue backwards (try to say "rrr" like in "rrrrright!" in english but at the same time try to make a "sh" sound like in "shy". It's basically a sound combining both the english r and the sh sounds (with your tongue rolled backwards).

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And another link of people debating this:

http://how-to-learn-...3799&PN=3&TPN=1

Edit: You can guess that I am in complete agreement with the Captian Haddock person. Also I like what Tadeo said below: Really critical is that by using the English "sh" to pronounce the Mandarin "sh" you could actually confuse native Mandarin Chinese speaker with what you are trying to say. If you just said the English "she" as it is to a Chinese Mandarin speaker, they might guess you could be saying "西" but not "湿".

"x: use the English sh sound, as in “she”. Even though it’s not exactly the same as x, it’ll never be taken as a Chinese “sh”, so it will generate no confusion: it's palatal, and that's what you need."

Finally, I've already sent out a couple of youtube links that I completely agreed with in terms of how "sh" and "x" are taught (presumably by a native Mandarin Speaker). Yes, I know that Mandarin "x" and English "sh" have their differences. I am very aware of that. However, I am more concerned about telling native English speakers (say those from the USA for example) that somehow the English "sh" sounds like the Mandarin "sh". While I realize that people will keep on debating with me on this, I've already taken a step back to say that the best way is to have your teacher and/or native Mandarin speakers correct you and to just say the Mandarin sounds without making comparisons if possible. The "sh", "ch", and "zh" sounds in Mandarin are probably the most difficult Mandarin consonant sounds for a native English speaker to master.

[jkhsu]

@renzhe, great post on the sound links to wikipedia. Each of them sounds perfectly accurate to me. So here's the question for people:

This is the English "sh"

[ʃ]: http://en.wikipedia....veolar_sibilant

Which one of these sounds closer to the English "sh"?

1. Chinese Mandarin "sh" [ʂ]: http://en.wikipedia....roflex_sibilant

2. Chinese Mandarin "x" [ɕ]: http://en.wikipedia....alatal_sibilant

My vote is #2

Edit: Click on the listen button in the wikipedia links.

[Demonic_Duck]

I'd have to say [ʃ] sounds closer to [ʂ] than [ɕ] to me.

[creamyhorror]

Haha, here we go again.

However, the Shanghainese 西 is much closer to the English "sh" sound than say the CCTV example link you sent. The point I am trying to make is that some native Chinese, depending on their regional dialect influence, may pronounce the Mandarin "xi" closer to the English "sh" than others.

I sent the CCTV example because it should be the most authoritative source for pronunciation. Clearly, if a CCTV newsreader is pronouncing x like that, it's very likely to be the official standard.

Similarily many native Mandarin speakers may pronounce the Mandarin "sh" as "s" (i.e. in Taiwan and with Shanghainese natives also). I believe this is incorrect but it's done often enough that it's taken as a "de facto" ok. I might even suggest that if you are trying to pronounce the Mandarin "sh" sound correctly but can't, it's better to make the mistake of saying "s" than the English "sh". Check out how Jay Chou says the Mandarin "sh" sounds. He uses "s" quite often; so does the announcer and Wang Lee Hom actually to some extent.

Yeah, Taiwanese tend to pronounce sh without the retroflex. And they tend to pronounce x with a 'sh' sound (listen to their xiangs and xiaos), such that the two sound quite alike.

But no, when you're pronouncing pinyin sh, I have to say it's definitely better to use English 'sh' than 's' - unless you're trying to sound (stereotypically) Taiwanese. I don't see why you say it's better to do the reverse since we're talking about standard Mandarin here, not local accents.

Here's a link from someone who agrees with me:

http://au.answers.ya...03024149AAt2ke7

It doesn't help to quote random people; if you pronounce x like English 'sh', you're simply not going to sound like a CCTV broadcaster.

And another link of people debating this:

http://how-to-learn-...3799&PN=3&TPN=1

Edit: You can guess that I am in complete agreement with the Captian Haddock person. Also I like what Tadeo said below: Really critical is that by using the English "sh" to pronounce the Mandarin "sh" you could actually confuse native Mandarin Chinese speaker with what you are trying to say.

Huh. I'm afraid I have to disagree completely with Tadeo. There is just about no way a native Mandarin speaker would get confused by English 'sh', because tons of Chinese people pronounce their shs pretty much like that. (Also, posting assertions that x sounds sort of like English sh - no less by learners - doesn't really do much to convince me. Give me some examples of standard speech and I'll evaluate those.)

If you just said the English "she" as it is to a Chinese Mandarin speaker, they might guess you could be saying "西" but not "湿".

Well, obviously, because 湿 has a different vowel. That's no comparison. I could flip it around and say, if you said English 'shah', the speaker would obviously guess you were saying 杀 or 沙, because there's no other alternative.

Ultimately I go by CCTV pronunciation (which should be the gold standard in accuracy). I'm going to go listen to a few more news broadcasts, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to find crisp, almost s-like pronunciations of xs.

However, I am more concerned about telling native English speakers (say those from the USA for example) that somehow the English "sh" sounds like the Mandarin "sh". While I realize that people will keep on debating with me on this, I've already taken a step back to say that the best way is to have your teacher and/or native Mandarin speakers correct you and to just say the Mandarin sounds without making comparisons if possible. The "sh", "ch", and "zh" sounds in Mandarin are probably the most difficult Mandarin consonant sounds for a native English speaker to master.

They're only hard if you insist on sounding like a full-on Northerner

(If a native speaker (kenny, semantic nuance, sally-txl, anyone?) would like to correct me on any point, please do.)

[creamyhorror]

Okay, more examples from CCTV's "Special Chinese" 慢速新闻汉语. Listen to the sharp sibilant 's'-sound preceding her pronunciation of x:

http://english.cntv....05/108409.shtml

@ 0:28 - juxing qidong yishi - sharp x

@ 1:05 - chongman aixin de - sharp x

@ 1:20 - zhaoshou yanzhong yingxiang - sharp x

I went back to previous episodes to find a different reader:

http://english.cntv....18/102167.shtml

@ 1:11 - fenxi renshi - sharp x

@ 1:25 - huoxu jiang xiankai - sharp x

@ 1:27 - Meiguo Zhufang Jinrong Xitong - ultra-sharp x (this is a good one)

I think it's apparent from these two readers that standard x really doesn't sound like English 'sh'. Everyone's opinions are welcome, of course.

edit: For completeness, I should also say that standard sh isn't English 'sh', but they certainly sound more similar to me (and others here) than x does to English 'sh'. English 'sh' (while having a range of variation) tends to be thick and only a bit 'ahead' of standard sh in terms of tongue position. Standard x (as demonstrated by the speakers above) is all the way in front, close to the 's' sound.

edit2: Now I think about it, some Mandarin speakers I've met in the US and here tend to pronounce English 'sh' incorrectly (not thickly enough). Maybe it's because they were taught that 'she' is pronounced like 西 . . . hmm.

[rezaf]

Well, obviously, because 湿 has a different vowel. That's no comparison. I could flip it around and say, if you said English 'shah', the speaker would obviously guess you were saying 杀 or 沙, because there's no other alternative.

The vowel can affect the consonant which means that the sh in 杀 is not quite the sh in 湿。I just used a software and compared the consonant part of different "sh"s of the pronunciations in 汉典 (however I don't have the tools to compare them scientifically). I agree with you that the sh in 杀 is close to the English sh but don't think you can generalize it. I also compared 杀 with shah using thefreedictionary's pronunciation and they are also slightly different. So I suggest that we accept these are all different sounds but sometimes because of the vowels they get close to each other. If I wanted to teach it to someone I would say the English sh is exactly in between sh and x.

[creamyhorror]

If I wanted to teach it to someone I would say the English sh is exactly in between sh and x.

I can agree with "somewhere in between sh and x".

The spectrum of s-sounds, from 'thinnest' to 'thickest':

pinyin s (洒)

pinyin x (西)

English sh ("she")

pinyin sh (杀)

As long as a speaker keeps pinyin x and pinyin sh separate, he/she will be fully understood, whether he uses retroflex sh or not. If I do a full retroflex sh, it sounds like a funny throaty "sh" (like Sean Connery might use), but my impression is that even among broadcasters, many don't speak like that.

edit: In fact, the sharp x sounds pretty much the same as "C" when you say "the letter C". I would say if I were teaching someone to pronounce standard x, I'd use that comparison.

[Hofmann]

Somebody was going to do this eventually. I did a quick recording (attached) with my webcam microphone, opened it in Adobe Audition, and took a screenshot of the right channel of the spectrogram.

s ɕ ʃ ʂ.mp3

[creamyhorror]

Slow afternoon, so I'll post a few more CCTV examples. I found another reader (a male) on Special Chinese (with very clear audio):

http://www.cctv.com/...se-20100326.mp3

@ 1:07 - Liu Xiangdong - ultra-sharp x (on the edge of becoming s)

@ 2:14 - yanhai feixing de - sharp x

@ 2:21 - diao tou xiang bei - ultra-sharp x

@ 2:47 - Daxiyang - sharp x

For variety, here's a video from Happy Chinese (快乐汉语):

http://english.cntv....24/102978.shtml

@ 1:08 - Fuchuan ye bei yuwei Guo Xiang Fuchuan - sharp x

@ 1:36 - Quanxixi - sharp x

Do any English speakers think all these xs sound like English 'sh'? Or do the pinyin shs sound more like it? I think basically all these sharp xs sound like "C" in English, which is distinct from English 'sh'. We should have a poll ;)

Somebody was going to do this eventually. I did a quick recording (attached) with my webcam microphone, opened it in Adobe Audition, and took a screenshot of the right channel of the spectrogram.

Thanks, that's a nice comparison.

I actually think pinyin x ranges between s and ɕ, with the CCTV standard (as defined by the audio clips I've linked) probably falling somewhere in-between. Hence I interpret pinyin x as being separate from ʃ and ʂ, which I judge to be more similar. I think this may go for the other folks here who think English 'sh' and pinyin sh are more alike.

(Incidentally, I think many Taiwanese pronounce pinyin x as ɕ, which sounds noticeably different from the CCTV standard to me. You can hear this on most Taiwanese talkshows and interviews.)

vvvvv yep, hope you're enjoying it

[roddy]

Sorry, but is this entire five page debate over whether the English 'sh' is closer to pinyin x or sh?

[rezaf]

Do you mEan it's lame?

[roddy]

As long as you're having fun.

[Guest realmayo]

Sorry, but is this entire five page debate over whether the English 'sh' is closer to pinyin x or sh?

Not only are there five pages, there is now a poll: http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/34739-poll-shhhhhhh-x-or-sh/

:mrgreen:

[roddy]

Going to close this one then, or we'll end up with the discussion going on in parallel. Continue.