What makes a Han a Han?

[davesgonechina]

I've been reading alot of stuff about China's various minority ethnic groups and they always seem to be defined quite rigidly with traditional costumes, songs, dances and customs. But I never see anything that clearly outlines what makes the Han a unified ethnic group. Everybody, throw in your criteria. I'll get it started:

1) Common written language

2) Confucian philosophical tradition

Those are the only indisputable ones I can think of. Or maybe they are disputable. Fire away.

[Jose]

I think language is the main factor. In China the term 民族 (nationality) is most often used to refer to linguistic groups. So, Tibetans are those who speak Tibetan, Uighurs are those who speak Uighur, and so on.

By this definition, Han Chinese would be those Chinese whose native tongue, and that of their parents, is Chinese in a broad sense (i.e. including the so-called dialects like Cantonese, Min, Wu, etc).

As far as I'm aware, the only 民族 that does not have its own language are the Huí (回), who are ethnically and linguistically indistinguishable from the Han. Religion is the defining factor for the Huí: They are Muslims.

Since there are so many ethnic groups in China, I don't know if there may be other officially recognised 民族 that are characterised by religion rather than language. In any case, I would say language is the main criterion.

[davesgonechina]

The PRC used the same method Stalin applied to Central Asia when they identified the 56 nationalities currently recognized. It used criteria that determined if one is a member of a group that was ever linguistically, economically, geographically, or "culturally" distinct from the so-called Han majority population. When they first did their initial studies, they had around 300 something minorities, so they tweaked it to get down to a manageable 56. But that's why I asked the question - yeah, the Miao are different on language, the Uighurs on geography, the Hui on religion, etc. etc. But that's how they differ from the Han. So that's why I ask the question: what's a Han, without referring to how they're not the same as those other people? Linguistics, geography and religion are easy ways to distinguish "not Han". I'm talking about how do you define a Han without referring to anybody else?

[wushijiao]

I think it's more practical to think in terms of what makes the "other" different. Perhaps being Han means never having to question what being a Han means. I think that's often the case with dominant ethnic groups in many countries.

[ala]

Being Han is like being white.

[davesgonechina]

I tend to think the same thing, Ala.

[Outofin]

I've never thought of the question before, davesgonechina.

But after all, this is not an option to me. I was born be a Han. I can't say I'm a Hui or Zang, can I? Chinese is a nationality. But Han is a race in it. Race is blood.

By the way, I don't like Confucism very much.

[Bright]

Im a mixed-blood person of Han and Man(满族).Maybe I can tell you something.First of all, people of Han spend the same festivals.And most of the minority has their own festival different from Han. the lingual difference and traditional clothes may be part reasons.

[davesgonechina]

Hey Outofin, Bright, thanks for sharing.

Outofin, you say Han is a race and it's in your blood. OK, but what exactly does that mean? Is there a Han genetic marker? Or are you referring to the two tribes, the Zhong and the Hua? If it's only a racial thing, then what are the distinguishing features that are uniquely "Han"? Also, I'm not saying all Han people like Confucianism - just that Confucianism appears to be an overwhelmingly influential in every aspect of Han society, like Christianity influencing everything in Western Europe over the ages (even though plenty of Western Europeans aren't Christian).

Bright: ok, festivals. I guess you mean Spring Festival and the like, right? What are the key beliefs behind such festivals? What do the festivals reflect - aspects of Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, some other concepts or values? Again, I look to Christmas - Christmas reflects a religious component of western European culture (Christianity) and the secular ideas in Western society that either come from Christianity or were influenced by it (peace on earth, goodwill towards your fellow human beings, universal love, charity, and of course lots of shopping).

I don't understand why you say "this is not an option", Outofin. OK, you're Han and that can't change. But I would think you could still as the question "what does that name mean, anyway?"

[Outofin]

davesgonechina,

Like I said, Han is a race. Race is blood. I said it’s not an option because it's determined by nothing else but who your parents are. The second generations of Chinese immigrants in American know little about China. They don’t speak Chinese. In term of the nationality, they’re American. But they are no doubt Han in term of the race.

You seem to me are talking about the culture or the civilization of Han. Unlike the race, it can’t be clearly defined. Like you and Bright mentioned, language, values and festivals matter. I think the Han culture consists of three core parts, which are Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism(儒，释，道). I happen to have read a book The Clash of Civilizations by Samuel P. Huntington. As an American, the author is also trying to define the civilizations and to find out who they themselves are. I'll introduce you more ideas in the book later when I have time.

May I know who you are? You seem to come from Urumqi. I'm very curious about there.

[davesgonechina]

When defining race, there's making some sort of biological claim to what determines someone's race, or there's looking to ancestry (parents, like you mention Outofin). Those are overlapping concepts, since you get your genes from your parents, but not necessarily the same thing, since if you say both your parents are Han, then it still leaves the question about whether there's a biological indicator that *they* are Han (or anything else you might call a race) and if there is, what that happens to be. Though the history of the Han people is incredibly long, the history of homo sapiens as a species is longer, and at some point things went from there being no Han to there being Han... what distinguished them biologically, if anything?

I don't believe there is one. I've never seen anything saying there's some key gene or something that. Most racial categories are much broader (caucasian, mongoloid, negroid or something along those lines) and even for those there's alot of pseudo-science (like craniometry, measuring skulls and facial features, which has been thoroughly debunked). Would you consider Han and Koreans and Japanese to be different races, or do they all belong to some larger racial category called Asian or something like that? Again, what makes them distinct?

You say what your parents are determines your race and there are no options, but I think if you have a mixed background like Bright, then there can be some element of flexibility as you can determine how you combine those two backgrounds, and if there is one that you associate yourself more with. Many people in the U.S. have a very diverse ancestry, and may consider themselves to be more one thing than any other. Again, this has more to do with culture than biology. But biology can be a factor - such as when people who have both white and black ancestry can be lumped into a social category of "white" or "black" simply because they happen to be dark skinned enough or light skinned enough. In apartheid South Africa and other places, hierarchical categories and names were established describing a whole spectrum of different skin tones. Clearly in that case, a simple fate of which gene determined skin color led to someone being pigeonholed as "mulatto" or "octoreen" or whatever. That would influence how they identify themselves.

As for civilization, that's more what I'm trying focus on. I'm familiar with Samuel Huntington, his Clash of Civilizations theory is frequently referred to. I haven't read the book, but I once read the article the book grew out of and what others have done with the idea. It's created this whole industry of thinking that says the major civilizations of the world (Christianity, Islam and I believe he lumps all of Asia into "Confucianism") are at root incompatible, and we'll continually be at odds with one another. I'm not very impressed with what I've seen. I'd be interested, though, to hear what you think about it.

Me? I'm an American teaching English and living in Urumqi. One of the reasons I'm curious about this is because there's a fair amount of racial tension out here, with stereotypes being thrown around by both Han people and Uighur people (as well as all the other ethnic groups out here). But there's a tendency in things like tourism to describe minority groups as having these rituals and traditions and costumes, but I don't see the same sort of descriptions for foreign tourists when they come to see traditional Han stuff. Like Ala said, it's like what white people do to minorities in places like the U.S. - Hispanics, Native Americans, African Americans are all described as having identifiable features, but rarely (outside of comedy) do you hear about identifiable markers for white people.

[Pravit]

I'm curious about it too, since I'd think that there is nothing that distinguishes "Hans" biologically. For example, if you have a person of Manchu descent who looks like a "Han" and speaks "Hanyu", is he classified as a "Han" or a "Manchu"? But then again, this brings us back to "What do Hans look like?" There seems to be a lot of different faces that can be classified as "Han", so I really don't think it has anything to do with genes. Maybe it's more about simply being the descendant of someone who is "Han." If the Manchu person in question said that he was descended from "Hans", nobody would be able to tell, right? As for how they came about distinguishing themselves from others originally, that's a good question you could pose about any group of peoples today. When did the people who now call themselves "German" and "French" begin to distinguish themselves from others? Is there any way you can distinguish a German face from a French one? Maybe there are some that are distinctly German or French, but aren't there many more that could claim either ethnicity from looks alone? How are these people classified as German or French, other than being born to German or French parents(and how do they belong to one ethnicity or the other)?

Like Ala said, it's like what white people do to minorities in places like the U.S. - Hispanics, Native Americans, African Americans are all described as having identifiable features, but rarely (outside of comedy) do you hear about identifiable markers for white people.

Another interesting one. What is "white" in the US? Are, say, Hungarian immigrants to the US classified as "white"?

[Outofin]

Keanu Reeves says 1/8 of him is Chinese. That pretty much makes sense (it even makes more sense given he acted in the amazing movie Matrix). But who cares if a man living in South Africa is 1/256 Chinese. On the other hand, if a 1/2 Korean - 1/4 Chinese – 1/4 French looks like Chinese, I have no problem calling him Chinese. Appearance, language and behaviors seem to be the key issues. But I mean, our intuition and common senses work perfectly here. We don’t have a clear definition. Why bother to make one? Speaking of the gene science, let scientists do their home works. Who knows, maybe they’ll find something. That would be exciting and terrifying, right? If I find I’m partly Roman or Mogul, it’s exciting. But if some ones make gene weapons by it, that’s no fun.

Why the minorities have identifiable features while the majorities don’t? Maybe it’s because the majorities are so varied that it’s hard to define, especially in the modern world. Hans are so different from the east to the west, the north to the south. But, in the US, Chinese do have a fixed image, don’t we? We’re set up!

Regarding Huntington’s book, it makes me not comfortable. However, I won’t accuse he’s a hatred spreader for he states the fact of hatred in the world. “Hating other people makes you feel more proud of whom you are.” Oh, how evil it is! But it’s more depressing when you realize that’s true! I can imagine if there were alien civilizations, they’d be astonished to see we hate and compete with each other and it makes us as a human race become stronger.

Compared to the eternal wars between Islam and Christianity, China seems to be peaceful. I personally, and I believe many of us, don’t inherently hate other nations. Nonetheless, let’s face the situation in Xinjiang. I heard some terrible stories there. I’m very pessimistic about it because I see no solution. I hope people from both sides could do better. Can we spread our culture so they can feel like being a Chinese? Or we make the nation extremely strong that they feel proud of being a part of it? It may, or may not, work. And it will anyway take more than 100 years. What can I say when I blame Americans for doing evil things in the world, they response with “see your own history”.

[carlo]

I've read Huntington's book and I think it has some good points. IMO Gellner's 'Nations and Nationalism' does a better job at explaining the way national, clannish and racial mythologies came to be and why they are important. Group identities have always been important in human societies, but modern identities have unique characteristics of their own.

The Chinese word for national group (民族) gained currency when intellectuals (Sun Yatsen, Liang Qichao) were beginning to think of China as a nation state. The traditional 'clannish' notion of identity, centred on 'having common ancestors' (血缘), was grafted onto a national, mythical imagery (Han, 'the yellow emperor', 'the descendants of the Dragon'), and used as a rallying point against the Manchu. The influence of (European) Social Darwinism on 19th century Chinese nationalists is well documented (the idea that national groups compete with each other for natural resources). So, ironically, modern Chinese identity is very much a mixed blood child.

On the other hand, if a 1/2 Korean - 1/4 Chinese – 1/4 French looks like Chinese, I have no problem calling him Chinese. Appearance, language and behaviors seem to be the key issues. But I mean, our intuition and common senses work perfectly here. We don’t have a clear definition. Why bother to make one?

Work perfectly? What if your 1/2 Korean mate grew up in Vietnam, looks Mexican and speaks French and Chinese natively? Where do you draw the line? One reason to have definitions is to avoid misunderstandings, as different groups have vastly different notions of identity.

[davesgonechina]

Outofin,

Why does it make even "more sense" that Keanu is 1/8 Chinese "given he acted in the... Matrix"? I don't get it - is there some connection between being Chinese and being in the Matrix???

Actually, if we put together Outofin's comment that:

Maybe it’s because the majorities are so varied that it’s hard to define, especially in the modern world. Hans are so different from the east to the west, the north to the south.

and Carlo's comment:

The traditional 'clannish' notion of identity, centred on 'having common ancestors' (血缘), was grafted onto a national, mythical imagery (Han, 'the yellow emperor', 'the descendants of the Dragon'), and used as a rallying point against the Manchu.

Then I think we can pretty safely bury any discussion of a genetic or otherwise biological basis for being "Han"... which is good, because there's already a thread about Han and genes and I'd rather go into the cultural side.

What if your 1/2 Korean mate grew up in Vietnam, looks Mexican and speaks French and Chinese natively? Where do you draw the line? One reason to have definitions is to avoid misunderstandings, as different groups have vastly different notions of identity.

I'd point out that with this imaginary Korean/French/Chinese dude, to avoid misunderstandings you'd have to move past group definitions to individual definitions - who does *he* think he is?

Anyway, so back to the idea of how Han Chinese people tend to characterize themselves. So now we have the following criteria floating about:

- Language

- Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism as major philosophical roots

- Descendants of the Dragon (does this have any interpretive meaning beyond the imagery?), the Yellow Emperor

- Han as 20th Century Social Darwinist-inspired construct (for political purposes)

- Festivals (I'd like to hear more about what might be the cultural markers in Chinese festivals)

- The Matrix (just kidding, Outofin!)

Also, the whole Han=White comparison is fascinating. I like Pravit's question about Hungarian immigrants in the U.S. The answer, Pravit, is yes, Hungarian immigrants would be classified as "white", unless they are actually not. Sound weird? It's literally a distinction based on color, nothing else. So unless those Hungarians are of, say, Indian descent or any other ancestry that might result in dark skin, they can, as we say, "pass". Some people, however, may single them out as Eastern Europeans or Slavs, again, based on appearance not fact.

Oh, and back to Outofin for a moment:

Nonetheless, let’s face the situation in Xinjiang. I heard some terrible stories there. I’m very pessimistic about it because I see no solution. I hope people from both sides could do better. Can we spread our culture so they can feel like being a Chinese? Or we make the nation extremely strong that they feel proud of being a part of it?

See, the whole point of the anger felt out here (among minorities) is that they don't want to feel like being Chinese, because Chinese = Han. There's too much association in China between the nation-state and the majority ethnic group; if being a citizen of the PRC was less associated in peoples minds with being Han, I think then things might be more inclusive. But unless China does that, then minorities will always feel like becoming Chinese means they give up their own culture, whether it's true or not. The same goes for being proud of a strong China - in fact, if China = Han, then a stronger China will probably intimidate alot of minorities.

[djwebb2004]

It is commonly said in the West that the Hui are just Chinese Hans, that they are ethnically Han, but practise Islam. From a Chinese point of view this is incorrect. If Jiang Zemin became a Muslim tomorrow he would not become Hui. The Hui *are* ethnically distinct from the Han, because they have a small number of Arab and other ancestors. Think of the parallel with groups such as Jews and Gypsies in the West. No one is going to say to a Jew that if he has blond hair, he must be ethnically indistinct from European populations, because we recognise Jews as a distinct ethnic group, and the fact that people have mixed ancestry is besides the point. The same with the Hui.

[djwebb2004]

The answer is clear: a common culture makes Hans Han, and indeed makes any ethnic group. All Han share the Confucian tradition, the Daoism, the characters, the shanshui painting, the tea drinking, the traditional clothes etc. What is the point of the question?

[Outofin]

Why does it make even "more sense" that Keanu is 1/8 Chinese "given he acted in the... Matrix"? I don't get it - is there some connection between being Chinese and being in the Matrix???

Don't take it seriously. Just for fun. I meant Keanu at least made something related to China. As you may know, many action movies have Chinese crews behind them, including Matrix, Spiderman 2 and Daredevil. Can we say Kung Fu is still our patent at the moment?

[davesgonechina]

I guess the point of the question is to explore all of those aspects and any others that make someone Han. You raise some other criteria to explore, djwebb2004: shanshui painting, tea and traditional clothing hadn't been mentioned yet. Hanfu, actually, is something I'd like to know more about. Some people may consider some aspects to not be uniquely Han, while others may suggest characteristics that may be too easily forgotten. The other thing is I'm curious about how Han identity is being affected by more modern things - traditional clothes, for example, have all but disappeared and t-shirts and jeans are considered the norm.

[davesgonechina]

Sure, Outofin, Kung Fu can get thrown in there too. I'm not trying to narrow the definition, just explore all the possibilities. The Matrix had almost everybody in there - inspired by the Japanese anime Ghost In The Shell, Chinese wire-fighting, French philosophy, Greek myths and that Thespian/Professor of African American Studies Cornel West - so I guess I just have trouble immediately thinking Chinese when you mention it. But Chinese is definitely in there.