Scams over assault and injury

[rezaf]

It's sympathy. In other words you feel distressed because you imagine how it would feel like if it were you or your child who fell down the well but it wouldn't imply that you would actually jump down the well to rescue that child. I don't think that sympathy is a pure selfless or moral feeling but it's just a part of human behavior. It's the same feeling that a hollywood producer invests on when he makes a horror or tragic movie and it's the same feeling that entertains you when you go to see that movie. You might even cry when the main character dies or you might get scared when a wild animal attacks him but after you finish the movie and get entertained then you will forget everything. A lot of people on the internet who express how they were distressed when they watched that video are exactly the same people who would ignore that child and would walk away in a real situation. However I don't see things in black and white, probably a minority like that ayi would actually go for help without thinking about their own interests.

[roddy]

I presume you'd explain actual acts of kindness as purely selfish attempts to make us feel good about ourselves. You must live in a very dark place.

Location:Shanghai

Ah yes.

[gato]

I don't want to get into a philosophical debate because it usually devolves into a debates over definitions of words (i.e. what does "selflessness" mean, etc).

Anyway, for a contrast, take a look at this video of strangers lifting a burning car to rescue an injured motorcyclist who was trapped under the car. Note that a burning car is hot. It may give you something to think about regarding what human nature is or is not.

Motorcyclist under burning car: RESCUED by crowd of bystanders

Interview with the rescuers

[rezaf]

I presume you'd explain actual acts of kindness as purely selfish attempts to make us feel good about ourselves.

Exactly. This might be the case most of the time. That's why I said in one of my posts that selfishness is not good or bad by its nature. Selfishness can be used for making people do good things and that's what religions and society have been trying to do for thousands of years. Personally I think it gives more results comparing to having your society's structure based on "People are inherently good". This is only my opinion but probably the communist values fading away and lacking religion play some part in what we saw in that video.

@gato: I can't open youtube but I didn't say that human nature is dark or bad. There are lots of moments that we do good things but how much of it is selfish or not(not roddy's dark interpretation of being selfish) is debatable. </div>

[xiaocai]

My dictionary says:

selfish

adjective

(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

sympathy

noun

1 feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.

2 understanding between people; common feeling.

Don't you think these two words just basically contradict each other?

[rezaf]

I don't think a normal dictionary is a good place to look up words for philosophical debates.

[xiaocai]

Sorry but I don't those famous philosophers all used abnormal dictionaries, if there is one.

[rezaf]

Single words are sometimes not enough for expressing an idea. I suggest that you pay more attention to the idea rather than getting stuck in words and dictionaries.

[xiaocai]

I could not get you ideas so had to resort to using a dictionary.

[rezaf]

Then watch "Friends S5 E4" I think Phoebe and Joey or someone else discussed it somewhere.

[gato]

Here is a clip on Sina of the video of the rescue from a burning car. I uploaded a longer clip to Youku, but it hasn't been cleared yet.

http://video.sina.com.cn/p/news/w/v/2011-09-14/123961484977.html

视频:实拍大火中众人抬起轿车救下卷入车底男子

9月12日，美国犹他州盐湖城发生一起交通事故，一辆摩托车和一辆汽车相撞，导致两辆车都发生燃烧。 　　

摩托车手被困在汽车下，一些目睹了事故过程的路人赶忙上来试图抬起汽车，把摩托车手拖出来。一开始，人手显然不够，汽车纹丝不动。不过，有更多的路人伸出了援手。在大家的齐心协力下，汽车终于被抬起来，摩托车手被拖了出来。后来，消防员和警察赶到，扑灭了火焰，并将伤者送往医院。一名学生在附近的楼上拍下了救援的全过程。据了解，摩托车手伤势严重但情况稳定，汽车司机则没有受伤。据报道，这辆汽车从停车场开出来开到路口后没有停车观望，导致了事故的发生。 　　

[Meng Lelan]

The news are now reporting that Yue Yue has died early Friday in China.

[roddy]

I don't think a normal dictionary is a good place to look up words for philosophical debates

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

Perhaps you could take the discussion to a 'philosophical' forum, as I can't make much sense of you either. We have enough genuine linguistic misunderstandings on here without playing word games.

Sad story, but not a particularly surprising one. Let's face it, it could just as easily have been about a gang arrested for using an apparently-injured toddler to extort money from good Samaritans.

[rezaf]

@Roddy: This is not anything new in philosophy or psychology and many people have talked about it before but perhaps if you read articles that were written by people who have a better English ability than mine then you’ll understand better. Here is a link: http://www.humantrut...o/altruism.html

and here is my detailed explanation:

1.We are selfish-> We do good because of self-interest & We do bad because of self-interest

2.What is self-interest? Anything that makes us feel satisfied: Power, money, other people’s respect, being proud of yourself, thinking that you are a hero, …

3.How can we promote goodness?

-Society can directly give you power, money, respect in return for doing good deeds.

-Even if society doesn’t give you those things religions can preach that God will give them to you in the afterlife if you do good deeds.

-Other ideologies like communism tell you that society will somehow pay you back

-Media, movies, education system, etc. can promote heroes who do good things and make you feel proud of yourself when you help people.

4.Conclusion: Humans are inherently “good and bad” but both “good and bad” are rooted in self-interest. In other words self-interest is where people decide whether doing good will make them more satisfied or doing bad and also that’s where society, religions, media, etc. should focus in order to promote goodness and discourage wickedness.

5.How is it related to yueyue’s story? Perhaps Chinese society, media and education system haven’t done the things that I mentioned in number 3 properly for those 18 people who ignored the little girl. Personally I think lacking religion or any other substitutes like communist values(as they are fading away) might be one of the reasons.

@xiaocai: As your dictionary says sympathy is feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune, the understanding between people or in other words the ability to feel what someone else feels. Sympathy in its nature doesn't imply anything about good or bad and is merely a tool. When you see a beggar you use this ability to help him, when you read a novel or watch a movie you use this ability to entertain yourself and even some crazy serial killer might use it to feel the pain of his victim and at the same time enjoy it.

[xiaocai]

I think we can drop this pointless discussion and let the little girl rest in peace now. You can't persuade me with what you have got for now and vice versa, most likely, I think. It is not because that we don't have enough evidence to support ourselves but our fundamental beliefs in human nature are very different.

[rezaf]

Perhaps this topic is not the place to continue this discussion but it's not pointless. A better understanding of human nature and this incident can help the society to improve its shortcomings in terms of education, ideology, values, etc. and therefore stop these incidents from happening again. Personally I have seen Chinese people volunteering and doing a lot when misfortunes like earthquake happen but what makes this a unique incident is that those people who walked away were all alone there and weren't aware of the camera, also didn't have the society's force and support behind them like what happens after things like earthquakes. I know that 18 people can't represent the whole country but this number is high enough to show that there is somewhere that needs to be fixed.

[Brian US]

I don't see this discussion going anywhere.

[Guest realmayo]

Agreed. I'm going back to Mencius!

[anonymoose]

I just watched the video on Youku. Most people seem to be concentrating their anger towards those 18 passers-by. However, I think it's difficult to draw conclusions just from the video. After all, I couldn't see any sign of blood, and there was no sound either. I can image that it would have been quite possible to walk past that child without noticing. Of the 18 passers-by, maybe some did see the child and chose to ignore it. Who knows. Either way, it's a tragic story.

But what really makes my blood boil about this is the van driver (both of them actually, but in particular the first one). The child was clearly in the middle of the driveway, and would have been clear to anyone paying attention. This accident could have easily been avoided if the driver had taken care. The problem is that this kind of self-centred driving is so common here. The number of people I see playing with phones while driving, and not looking where they are going is astonishing. In many instances, I've had to swiftly dodge out of the way of cars to avoid being hit or run over. People tend to drive far too fast and too close to other road users, relying on others to get out of the way. There seems to be a complete disregard for anybody else on the road. This is also true for motorcyclists and motorised trailers. It irritates me no end when traffic lights turn to red, and it's the pedestrians' turn to cross the road, only to be hooted at by oncoming motorcyclists warning pedestrians to get out of the way. I mean, WTF? Their light is red, and they're hooting at you to get out of the way??? If there's one thing that irritates me more than anything else being in China, it's the road culture here.

I'm sorry. I like living here, and generally don't have too many complaints. But after watching this incident, I feel so angry about the thoughtless and selfish road users that I just have to get it off my chest.

[rezaf]

Agreed. I'm going back to Mencius!

In think it's called 知難而退