More Help with 把

[Thomill]

Hello,

I am once again having trouble understanding the grammar around the use of 把. As part of Rosetta Stone Level 2 Unit 3, I had thought I understood its use with noun phrases such as:

你把钥匙放在哪里了？我把钥匙放在桌子上了。你把书放在哪里了？我把书放在椅子上了。

by emphasizing the noun/noun phrase after 把 such as "you took the keys and put it where?".

But then these are provided:

• 
  狗在把报纸拿给这个男人。
  
• 
  女孩子在把早饭拿给她们的父母。
  
• 
  她在把毛巾拿给他。
  
• 
  我把咖啡给你拿来了。
  

Perhaps it is because I do not understand 给 fully. I am not at all clear on what 拿给 (take and give to?) or 拿来 (take and bring to?) mean. In the next batch:

• 
  我在把鱼从商店拿回家去。
  
• 
  她在把球拿到公园去。
  
• 
  我们在把书从图书馆拿回家去。
  
• 
  他们在把水拿到公园去。
  

Quite frankly, I do not understand any of them. I known 从 is "to be from" but 拿回家去 and 拿到公园去 are unknown to me.

As always, I appreciate any assistance that can be provided.

[jbradfor]

e.g. 狗在把报纸拿给这个男人 . 在 might be throwing you off; here I think it just means "is in the process of". And I don't think 拿给 as one word, I think of 拿 as the verb (to hold in ones hand/mouth), and 给... is some part of speech (verbal phrase???) saying what is done with the object (报纸) by the subject (狗)

狗在把报纸拿给这个男人 is how I parse it.

Now your turn to try the rest

[edelweis]

"Chinese grammar without tears" has many things to say about 把, and especially:

"The use of ba3 is sometimes obligatory. For example, when the verb is followed by a directional complement or a complement of result with zai4, dao4, gei3, zuo4, or cheng2, the ba3 pattern is the only one that allows the object to be expressed."

In the first batch of examples, the verb is followed by gei3 (to introduce the person the object is given to, you could say it translates as "to" in "give (it) to the man"),

except for the last one where the verb is followed by lai2 which is an example of the "directional complement" (meaning the action includes a movement towards the speaker).

In the 2nd batch of examples, the verb is followed by dao4 in two of them, this also falls under this rule. (dao4 introduces the place in which direction the action happens - you could say it translates as "to" in "bring to the park").

And the other two have 拿回家去, I think there is a complement of direction somewhere in there (去), not sure exactly about 回家. Anyway it means "bring back home" but implies the subject (and the speaker?) is not presently at home.

Basically in these sentences, the verb is followed by some other complement and there is "no room" after the verb to put the direct object, so you're forced to put it before the verb...

[williamwu]

Hi

狗在把报纸拿给这个男人。”在 ”here indicates progressive tense."把" indicates this action is proformed by the subject 狗 but this sentence use the inverted order to move the object“报纸” before the verb"拿". We can re simplify and rearrange the sentence buy taking out "在"，“把”，“给这个男人”。 and you can get"狗拿报纸".This is the fundamental elements of a Chinese sentence."Subject (狗)Predicate（拿） Object（报纸）". 拿给can be considered as one english verb fetch.The dog is/was fetching the papers for the man。To understand the meaning of a Chinese sentence,you must figure out these elements first,sometime, you will only have Subject and Predicate because the verb/action dose not require an object as the action receiver. All the other words are just the supplementary to two/these elements.

女孩子在把早饭拿给她们的父母。“在” here indicates progressive tense

她在把毛巾拿给他。you can use fetch here

我把咖啡给你拿来了。you can use fetch here.

我在把鱼从商店拿回家去。here,拿is a verb,"回家去"is an adv. means "back to home" or just"home"."去" means nothing here,you can just omit it and the meaning of the sentence is just the same without it. I am taking the fish home.

她在把球拿到公园去。here拿 means "take" 到 is a prep. means "to" ."去" means nothing here,you can just omit it and the meaning of the sentence is just the same without it.

我们在把书从图书馆拿回家去。here拿 means "take" 到 is a prep. means "to" ."去" means nothing here,you can just omit it and the meaning of the sentence is just the same without it

他们在把水拿到公园去。here拿 means "take" 到 is a prep. means "to" ."去" means nothing here,you can just omit it and the meaning of the sentence is just the same without it

[renzhe]

This is the problem with "easy" programmes like Rosetta Stone. They don't explain grammar and for some reason, there is a widespread idea that there is no grammar in Chinese.

把 is a particle that tells you that the following noun is the direct object. I am bringing the fish, she is taking the ball, we are taking the books. In all cases, the thing after 把 is what is being taken/brought.

Sometimes you can make a sentence without it -- then using 把+object is used to stress it, in other situations you have to use it.

[Glenn]

...for some reason, there is a widespread idea that there is no grammar in Chinese.

I've heard this on a few occasions, and it drives me crazy every time.

[Guoke]

狗在把报纸拿给这个男人。

= The dog is fetching the paper for this man.

狗 = the dog

把报纸拿 = to fetch the paper (把+object+verb); 在把报纸拿 = to be fetching the paper

给这个男人 = for this man

我把咖啡给你拿来了。

= I have brought the coffee for you.

我 = I

给你 = for you

把咖啡拿来 = to bring the coffee (把+object+verb）； 把咖啡拿来了 = to have brought the coffee

她在把球拿到公园去。

= She is taking the ball to the park.

她 = she

把球拿 = to take the ball （把+object+verb）； 在把球拿 = to be taking the ball

到公园去 = to the park. （到......去 = to ...）

[Saluki]

"This is the problem with "easy" programmes ... They don't explain grammar and for some reason ..."

Some teachers of Chinese seem to be believe that for newish learners, grammar should not be taught. Ken Carroll, who used to do beginner and elementary lessons at ChinesePod, was of this view. I'm not sure why. Personally I prefer the explanations of grammar, like they have at Popup Chinese, because it helps to avoid frustrations as the learning progresses.

[Thomill]

Thank you all very much for the help!