Ideas on how to teach the third tone as a low tone

[Olle Linge]

As some of you well know, there are quite a number of linguists who describe the third tone in Mandarin as an essentially low tone, and there is a case for trying this out more in practice when teaching Chinese. This post is not about this argument, so if you don't agree, I'd be happy to discuss this privately or in a new thread. Also refer to my article about the third tone, which includes a small thesis on the topic. In this thread, I'd like to discuss possible practical aspects of teaching the third tone as a low tone.

The basic question that arises, once we assume, for one reason or another, that we want to teach the third tone as a low tone instead of a falling-rising tone, is how to do it practically. I'm planning on doing a small study on the practical aspects of third tone instruction, so I would be very happy to hear your thoughts about this.

The problem is that the third tone is almost never only a low tone when read in isolation (although it does happen). It is a low tone in most combinations and even in final position most of the time, but not when read in isolation. Since Chinese is almost never spoken one syllable at a time or with a single syllable per utterance, this is not a big problem for the case of calling the third tone an essentially low tone in the first place, but it does pose a practical problem for teachers.

How do we present the third tone as a low tone practically? Should we describe all tones in combinations? Should we present many versions of the third tone from the start? Or should we simply ignore the isolated state and teach it as a low tone, but with an added exception that it goes up towards the end if read in complete isolation?

I'm sure there is a way to do it, but I feel constrained by the traditional model of a falling-rising tone, which might still affect me, but won't be relevant for new students who have no concept of what is standard and what isn't. Any ideas, further questions or contributions are more than welcome!

[renzhe]

This is always a good link that pops up every time this discussion is raised: http://www.sinosplice.com/life/archives/2008/12/10/toward-better-tones-in-natural-speech

I think that it makes sense to think of the third tone as a low tone with a special dipping pronunciation when stressed or in isolation, rather than the other way around. But the reality is that the third tone has as least three different realisations in speech (rising, dipping and low), and that some further realisations are common (the falling third tone common in Taiwan).

Fourth tone has more than one realisation too (think of two of them in sequence), and neutral tone has at least 4, depending on the tone preceding it.

From that point of view, I don't know why this would pose a special problem for teachers. They have this problem already, it's just that tones in general are very tricky to teach. People from non-tonal languages often don't "get it", and the situation is not improved by adding more complex rules. It seems like the best way for learning tones is listening and imitation.

[Scoobyqueen]

My teacher teaches it as the lowest on the do re mi etc scale. And she keeps repeating the "do" so that I remember. I found this association helpful, especially having been taught the falling rising one. My third tone is much more natural now.

[Olle Linge]

From that point of view, I don't know why this would pose a special problem for teachers.

Well, perhaps I didn't describe the problem clearly enough. I have read the article on Sinosplice, but that only gives us a way of representing the third tone (basically saying that it's low). One merit with introducing the third tone as a falling-rising tone is that it's quite clear and easy to follow. We first introduce how the tone sounds in isolation and then adds a few rules that govern how it changes according to the tone of the following syllable. Quite reasonable and logical to new students.

We can't do that if we want to introduce the third tone as a low tone, simply because we can't start from an isolated case (supposedly easier to handle than complex combinations) and add rules. Perhaps I'm worrying too much about details, but I don't see an easy way of getting around this. Let's say we want to describe the four tones in Mandarin to a complete beginner, and we have 20 minutes to do so. If we don't want to introduce the third tone as a falling-rising tone, is there a practical alternative to allow us to introduce it as a low tone?

I do of course realise that it might be beneficial simply include a more varied presentation of the third tone in general. For instance, we could use a fairly traditional approach, but use tone graphs similar to the one suggested by John over at Sinosplice. This would make students more aware of how the third tone actually functions in context. However, what I'm interested in doing here is trying to present the third tone from the other direction, so to speak, and skip the falling-rising introduction altogether.

Does this make more sense? If not, I'll be happy to answer any questions or clarify further what I mean.

My teacher teaches it as the lowest on the do re mi etc scale.

I assume that you were already familiar with the third tone when you encountered this teacher, or is it the case that you've had the same teacher all the time? Do you know how she introduces this to beginners? I understand that it's quite easy to tell intermediate or advanced students that the third tone is actually a low tone most of the time, but I'm finding it hard to introduce to absolute beginners. If we do the routine with four versions of the syllable ma or yi, what would she say for the third tone? Or would she use a completely different method?

[renzhe]

This is the core of the problem. The "low" realisation only exists in speech, never in isolation. The canonical, traditional pronunciation of the third tone (and the only correct one for a single character in isolation) is the dipping one.

Yet, tones are (understandably) first taught in isolation, on single characters (usually ma). There, you have to use the canonical form.

That's why I find it hard to not teach the "canonical" dipping version in the beginning. It only makes sense to teach both versions from the very beginning, IMHO.

[Olle Linge]

That's why I find it hard to not teach the "canonical" dipping version in the beginning. It only makes sense to teach both versions from the very beginning, IMHO.

Yes, and I agree with you. Canonical T3 is probably necessary to include in the beginning. The reason I started this thread was to see if this is actually the case or if there are other solutions that might be interesting. I mean, even if it seems difficult (indeed impossible), it doesn't mean that that's actually the case.

[Guest realmayo]

Could you consider using 我 as an example? The most common third-tone word most beginners will see.

One simple sentence starting with 我, and one simple sentence ending with it. Therefore one sentence with it low, one with dip and rise.

Eg (can't write characters on this computer, only paste them):

A: Wo ai ta.

B: Duibuqi, ta ai wo!

[Scoobyqueen]

I assume that you were already familiar with the third tone when you encountered this teacher, or is it the case that you've had the same teacher all the time? Do you know how she introduces this to beginners?I assume that you were already familiar with the third tone when you encountered this teacher, or is it the case that you've had the same teacher all the time? Do you know how she introduces this to beginners?

I was already familiar with the third tone. However, she specifically mentioned that many teachers teaches this tone as a falling and rising tone and she said this is wrong. I therefore presume she teaches it to beginners. I think the do re mi method will still work for beginners.

[Olle Linge]

. I therefore presume she teaches it to beginners. I think the do re mi method will still work for beginners.

If you read my discussion with Renzhe above, we basically said that we have to use a dipping third tone in the beginning, because this is how it's actually pronounced in isolation. I'm not entirely sure what you mean with the do re mi method, to be honest, would you care to elaborate? For instance, how would she explain how 五 is pronounced? If we say it's a low tone, that's incorrect if we're just talking about the single syllable. It might be correct to speak of it in terms of being a low tone in natural speech, but we can't teach natural speech directly from day one, we have to have some kind of foundation first. That's at least how I see it.

[deathtrap]

Can anyone provide audio examples of what you guys are talking about for when a third tone is dipping, rising, or just low.

[Scoobyqueen]

Snigel - Can I post the file which is the diagramme she gave me. If so how do I attach it. It is just a basic diagramme with the third tone being low and then a second dotted line going up which I think represents the tone in isolation. I tried to attach the file but the attach file facility is missing somehow.

[Olle Linge]

Snigel - Can I post the file which is the diagramme she gave me. If so how do I attach it. It is just a basic diagramme with the third tone being low and then a second dotted line going up which I think represents the tone in isolation. I tried to attach the file but the attach file facility is missing somehow.

I have no idea how this forum works. If you can't attach, can you put it online and then link to it? If not, please e-mail me and I'll put it online for you and then we can link to it!

Can anyone provide audio examples of what you guys are talking about for when a third tone is dipping, rising, or just low.

Sure. I'm not a native speaker either of English or Chinese, but this should be good enough.