我国 can foreigners use?

[rob07]

Could you elaborate this point?

China has been called the only "civilisation state". See the random quote I pulled off the internet:

Accounting for this is China’s legacy as a civilisation state, where its characteristics, attitudes and values predate its existence as a nation state.

What does that mean for China’s development? Jacques explains: “I think it introduces at the very heart of the global system a country which is much, much older than any other country in the world. The fact that it's much older means that the way it sees itself; its sense of identity, its notion of race, its sense of its place in the world, is all markedly different from that of a conventional nation state.”

“China for the last hundred years has called itself a nation state and has developed the forms of a nation state. But it's not really a nation state. It's really a civilisation state. Or, as (China specialist) Lucian Pye put it rather well, ‘China is a civilisation, masquerading as a nation state, obliged by its weakness at the end of the 19th century to adapt to European norms.’ (Or), as I put it, its topsoil is that of a nation state; its geological structure is that of a civilisation state.”

That was just the first quote I pulled off the internet but the point is that China is arguably the only country that is an entire civilisation to itself. Australia is definitely not a civilisation. The average Chinese person probably doesn't think about it quite like that, but I get the sense that when they say 我国 there is a consciousness that China is special in a way that other countries are not. 我国家 sounds less personal to me. Actually, when I hear "我国家", I think "I am an Australian", but when I hear "我国", I think "I am a Westerner".

[Lu]

It's true that “我国”is often used to refer to the country Malaysia in its local media.

I think this is very interesting. I always thought of 我国 as a word that Chinese people can use to refer to China. I'd worry that using 我国 for (in my case) Holland would cause confusion, with people wondering if I were referring to China or Holland? But apparently it can be used for other countries too.

[Kenny同志]

Be sure to use it only on formal occasions or in writtings.

[Iriya]

You can't say 我的国家 in Chinese, unless of course you're the ruler or the said country. The same thing with 我的公司/我们公司, the first term can only be used by the boss. In Chinese culture an individual is not as important as the group he belongs to, so you're expected to use 我们 as much as possible. 我们班，我们学校，我们老师，我们这边... 我国 is nothing more but a contraction of 我们国家, when two two syllable words are contracted, the second syllable in each word is dropped, e.g. 外教 is a contraction of 外国教师.

[skylee]

You can't say 我的国家 in Chinese, unless of course you're the ruler or the said country.

Are you sure? We can't? Really? I think it is still 民為貴，社稷次之，君為輕, no?

In Chinese culture an individual is not as important as the group he belongs to

I feel so sad reading this.

[Iriya]

That's what our mainland teachers tell us. Pretty much word by word. Maybe it's different in Hong Kong, I don't know. Tell us.

[skylee]

Thanks for confirming your points.

Yes I think it is different in Hong Kong. I find the concept of "You can't say 我的国家 in Chinese" very hard to swallow. What I think is that the country is made up of its people and belongs to its people, who are the masters. The leaders are no more than representatives of the people. The people and the leaders should have equal rights, and the country equally belongs to the leaders and the people, so everyone should have equal right to say 我的國家. But perhaps this is just my personal and idealised view. And perhaps younger people educated after 1997 would embrace the concept you described. I don't know.

PS - in Hong Kong, people who work in the government, including the leaders (well they don't rank very high in the national hierarchy), are called public/civil servants 公僕.

[Iriya]

It's not about rights and equality. The party leaders also can't say 我的国家. Our teachers say that only a monarch would say so. It makes sense to me. As I undestand it, since you're sharing the country with everyone else, it's not your personal property, thus you can't say 我的国家.

[skylee]

I am glad that it makes sense to you.

[Kenny同志]

I have to say I disagree. 我爱我的国家 is perfect, both semantically and logically. It's exactly what "I love my country" means. I used to think teachers were always infallible when I was a kid but I discovered later I was wrong. And mind you, some Mandarin teachers are bad at Chinese.

@Skylee

I especially like the way you call policemen -差人, haha, that's interesting.

[Iriya]

FWIW, we also very rarely say "my country" in Russian, except for a few set phrases. I really doubt there are any political reasons for this.

[creamyhorror]

Huh?

- Since when could 我的国家, 我的公司, etc. not be used? I think your teachers need to be a little less obsessed about 'propriety'. I agree with skylee and kennywoo's points.

- 我国 to me at least is a word meaning the shared nation of both the speaker and the listener. So, here in Singapore, it would be weird to hear a foreign Chinese person say it to me; it might sound distant or formal, as if he were representing China in whatever he was saying to me. 我国 is used on Singapore news every day to refer to Singapore; it's definitely a formal term. I imagine it's the same in (independent) Chinese communities anywhere.

- Mainland Chinese and Taiwanese are definitely 外国人 to Singaporeans, and probably to Malaysians and other communities. How does the term make any sense otherwise? Singaporeans aren't 中国人; we're 华人 (more specifically 华侨/华裔), not mainlanders away from home.

[calibre2001]

Whenever I come across 我國 in newspapers, the closest English equivalent that comes to mind is 'The country'. Or even 本國家 So it's a formal term. I don't think it has any connections to 我的國家 if that makes any sense.

[Kenny同志]

Context counts. 我国, 我的国家, 我们国家 are used in different contexts.

我国 is formal, as I said in one of my previous posts, and used only on formal occasions or in writings.

我的国家 is a somewhat emotional word which may contain a tad of patriotism sometimes. Also, in the past, a king might refer to the country under his rule as his personal property by 我的国家. Therefore the implication might be double-fold.

我们国家 is neither formal nor emotional.

[Guest realmayo]

Out of interest, if you substitute say 爸爸 or 父亲 for 国, do the different tones of meaning carry over at all?

[yonglin]

- Mainland Chinese and Taiwanese are definitely 外国人 to Singaporeans, and probably to Malaysians and other communities. How does the term make any sense otherwise? Singaporeans aren't 中国人; we're 华人 (more specifically 华侨/华裔), not mainlanders away from home.

That is very interesting. I appreciate it.

Having been referred to as 外国人 several times by (mainland) Chinese speakers in different countries outside of China, where I could easily have passed for a "native", I have the feeling that this term is sometimes (correctly or incorrectly) used to mean "non-Chinese"/"not from China" rather than "from a foreign (relative to the current location) country".

[creamyhorror]

Having been referred to as 外国人 several times by (mainland) Chinese speakers in different countries outside of China, where I could easily have passed for a "native", I have the feeling that this term is sometimes (correctly or incorrectly) used to mean "non-Chinese"/"not from China" rather than "from a foreign (relative to the current location) country".

It would make sense if the speakers were just visiting or living in those countries for the short term, and talking to each other about you. They'd consider themselves 中国人 after all.

It would be weird if they were talking directly to you and said you were a 外国人. Maybe they're used to using the term instead of a more logical one like 西方人，欧洲人 or 洋人.

Relatedly, I chatted with someone from China who referred to me (IIRC) as a 中国人. I had to correct her and let her know we don't consider ourselves 中国人. It might be the same habit - considering 中国人 to mean anyone of the Chinese ethnicity, and considering all other ethnicities to be 外国人 - but it's obviously flawed and should be corrected where necessary.

[Kenny同志]

我爸 tend to be more frequently used by teenagers and adults.

我爸爸 same as 我爸.

我的爸爸 tend to be more frequently used by kids.

父亲 is formal, so are 我父亲 and 我的父亲.

[anonymoose]

Having been referred to as 外国人 several times by (mainland) Chinese speakers in different countries outside of China, where I could easily have passed for a "native", I have the feeling that this term is sometimes (correctly or incorrectly) used to mean "non-Chinese"/"not from China" rather than "from a foreign (relative to the current location) country".

I have also noticed this. I put it down to the fact that, in the grand scheme of things, Chinese people rarely speak to non-Chinese in Chinese. Therefore, 外国人 means relative to the people speaking, which confers on it the notion of "non-Chinese". I wonder whether Chinese people outside of China would use the English word "foreigner" in the same way...

Also, since I chat almost exclusively in Chinese with many of my friends, on more than one occasion they have said they take me to be a Chinese person, and often use the term 外国人 with me to mean non-Chinese. If the person happens to be outside of China at the time, it's always amusing to remind them that now they are the "外国人".

[creamyhorror]

Also, since I chat almost exclusively in Chinese with many of my friends, on more than one occasion they have said they take me to be a Chinese person, and often use the term 外国人 with me to mean non-Chinese. If the person happens to be outside of China at the time, it's always amusing to remind them that now they are the "外国人".

I would point out that 外国人 status doesn't change based on where you are. 外国人 means a citizen (or national) of another country.

I find it interesting they don't consider you 外国人. But it makes sense to refer to other foreigners as 外国人 because it's literally true that they are (whether you're a 外国人 yourself or not).

I suppose for many people 外国人 is just a politer version of 老外...