Typical free-loading

[Scoobyqueen]

An export incentive programme allows Chinese t purchasers to come to Europe to attend a major event .

[anonymoose]

...donning flame suit...

[querido]

"...a time to give and a time to take" - ha Kohelet

"dustbin of history" - Marx

"In the long run we are all dead" - Keynes

Quite a sweep.

EDIT: In this post I'm disagreeing with the original poster and defending China. I'm sorry that isn't clear. I explain it in posts 12, 13, and 18.

[querido]

We've had a long time, now, to observe human nature- Shakespeare, Moses, nothing new. We've also been recording the affairs of societies and of nations, including our own. But "everything old is new" because we are born into this story and must each learn this ourselves.

To me, your post suffers from a severely narrow perspective; I've escaped a lot of heartache by adopting a bigger picture.

EDIT: In this post I'm disagreeing with the original poster and defending China. I'm sorry that isn't clear. I explain it in posts 12, 13, and 18.

[Guest realmayo]

Well, it can't be that narrow a perspective can it? I mean, Scoobyqueen is comparing the behaviour of people from lots of different countries. Therefore, almost by definition, a wide perspective is involved.

[Scoobyqueen]

I work with people visiting our events coming from around 80 countries.

[Shelley]

When I was a kid if there was a "buy one get one free" I would ask why couldn't I just have the free one Maybe its a slightly naive viewpoint they have Can't knock em for trying As you can see from all the smileies that I am taking this light heartetly.

Shelley

[Scoobyqueen]

Shelley - That may well explain the behaviour. It is probably a bit naive.

[jkhsu]

While the scenario that scoobyqueen described is obviously true (as she's witnessed this herself), I can see the title of this post coming off as offensive to Chinese people. Freeloading is something that happens everywhere, not just with Chinese people. At the same time, if you ask Chinese natives whether this type of behavior occurs, most of them will probably agree that it does happen, perhaps quite often. The reasoning behind this is probably related to socio-economic factors and cultural (frugality, saving money, etc.) upbringing. Think about this, most Chinese natives from China over the age of 30 probably grew up (during childhood) in an environment considered poverty by Western standards. My guess is that perhaps concepts like "charity" and "generosity" are not ideas they are taught to value as much as "surviving" and "getting the best bang for the buck".

That said, I think if this were a forum in the USA frequented by all types of people and you had a title like "Typical [ethnic/race] free-loading" and you substitute the [ethnicity/race] with "African American", "Mexican", or "Asian American", you'd get some serious flame wars going.

[Scoobyqueen]

The title was chosen deliberately to be a bit provocative but also supposed to raise a smile at recognising this scenario (maybe). Anyway, a forum hopefully should be about different and sometimes opposing opinions.

[Shelley]

I just had thought, maybe you should do it in reverse. Offer 50% refund once they had stayed/completed the entire program.

Shelley

[querido]

Scoobyqueen- Thanks, but you're making fun of me, right? :-) It's hard to tell. Those quotes are a part of my world, I didn't "look them up". Like this:

"Tired with all these, from these would I be gone", "but I have miles to go before I sleep". So, I have nothing better than to "play the hand I was dealt", which I think is exactly what (you say) they are doing. Why would you begrudge them that?

The perspective I was referring to was historical; I might listen to your complaint when e.g. somebody force-marches Americans from the Smoky Mountains to Oklahoma. Again. And, you know, "our" banks aren't finished raping the world, yet we should take the extent of opportunism you describe seriously?

There's another perspective, of gravity, which would have us weigh which things *merit* a title like that. *This* issue, in a world of hunger and death? I don't agree.

If you're going to blow your "Typical (race/religion/nation/etc) (negative quality)" ration here, I would save it for something weightier. By the way, when do I get to blow mine? Or, "bang", as some would say http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/34961-google-opened-today-chinese-learning-resource/page__view__findpost__p__260676 .

anonymoose said "...donning flame suit...", and I imagined the typical flaming that would not actually touch the weakness of your post. So, I touched it; a flaming was done *right*, and in a 100% helpful spirit too.

[querido]

I'm thinking of one of my correspondence friends in China. She's a college graduate. She's smart and motivated, etc, of course. For a while, she posted pictures (just incidentally) of the inside of her current home. It was... pretty severe... it seemed to me. If she were to come to my country, I would not enjoy seeing her possibly grasp for every opportunity, but I *could not begrudge it*. I wouldn't.

I think it's generally acknowleged that people behave differently for a generation or two after a severe economic depression. We understand that, as they were our grandparents and great-grandparents who saved every sliver of soap and scrap of cloth. I imagine people would conduct themselves differently, would see the world differently, if they had suffered starvation and worse. But I wouldn't know, as I never have. And, speaking of morality, that non-experience constrains how I may judge them, to some extent. Don't you agree?

There is at least one ethnic group in the U.S. that is persistently thought of, by some, as greedy or materialistic or whatever. I find it easy to grant that it is largely because they experienced, historically recently, these kinds of conditions. But I am to grant a sweeping forbearance or empathy to them, but not to the Chinese? I refuse. No thanks.

[Guest realmayo]

I might listen to your complaint when e.g. somebody force-marches Americans from the Smoky Mountains to Oklahoma

So how many generations after the Long March does the world have to wait before they're allowed to write on these forums about traits noticeable in contemporary Chinese society that they find unhelpful? And would people from certain countries which themselves have, say, 50 years ago undergone some tough times, get a free pass?

[gato]

Lots of expat sites where people can do that, actually.

[paike]

My guess is, they already got the money and now want to enjoy the situation and take HALF the cash back with them. Probably do whatever is necessary to make that happen.

[Guest realmayo]

Lots of expat sites where people can do that, actually.

I'm not denying that there's a time and a place for these things, but I also don't think that marching around the country is too relevant here either.

[querido]

Trail of Tears. Indian Removal Act of 1830. Our "time to take".

Now, Scoobyqueen laments that someone *takes more than they give*. But logically, they could not do that unless someone *gives more than they take*. Why would they do that? Is it because it is now, or we're beginning to believe that it is now, our "time to give"? And *now* we're going to feel ourselves believers in fair play and harmony?

In view of what it took to win and take this world, which if there were cosmic justice would be revisited upon us, the issue in the original post shrinks to vanishing.

Scoobyqueen spoke of an annoyance or frustration and then, as she said, posted under a provocative title in order to generate some discussion. She said that.

I suggested, as a solution or alternative to that frustration, that she view it as part of a bigger picture, historically. But there's the present to consider too, for perspective. Everyone knows the whole world is in terrible trouble. I think we should husband our passions for the deserving, don't you?

[Gymnosopher]

It's interesting to consider where said character traits stemming from recent history stop and where those from culture/upbringing/distant history begin - so I'll not go off topic to read your comment as making un-useful racial stereotypes but rather as a legitimate observation that I believe it to be. Indeed, it has long been pointed out that different nations breed different traits (I recall something Chinese specific of this ilk in My Country and My People) so as long as these get kept above board on the sensitive side and perhaps complemented with with comparisons to our own nation-specific negativities - lest we all end up pointing the finger.

So let's see, what do people say about Brits/Londoners that would reflect badly on me? That we're cold, unfriendly/unwelcoming etc. let alone any reference to sub-cultures. Perhaps I'm being a little insincere in not really looking to discuss these but it's easier to look in from the outside and compare with what one cherishes from ones own culture.

Now my observation of the Chinese - well it is two-fold. I initially felt that people acted as if they had been starving for a long time, which goes in line with saying brought up and living through such poverty affects how people act and see the world - similarly how it is sometimes commented that former prisoners eat differently on the outside. However there is a difference between getting as much bang for your buck as you can and willing to trample over others in your own pursuit - which takes us to how you treat others in social interaction. This is alternatively found in the new generation of rich families, who's children were raised in affluence and have never seen what it is to live in conditions of scarcity. So for instance I'm continually shocked by how many people seem to shout at / boss around the waiters in a restaurant, the pump attendants in a petrol station or any other general service personnel. And of course the opposite is found when individuals are not in control so find themselves at the whims of authority, police shouting and seeming aggressive towards individuals seeking their help (though I'm told it is necessary to be aggressive in response to prove you want to get things done) or being ordered around in many highly bureaucratic institutions. Sure, customer service can suck anywhere but usually/hopefully there would be some sort of procedure/etiquette to complain through if authorities if not to vote with your feet - but here in China it seems to be part and parcel of life.

So the extent to which the above mentioned 'free-loading' is generation specific or culture specific? Surely it is those in business that are wealthiest in China, particularly any in purchasing positions that would enable them to buy for Europe. To try and haggle on the cost of your incentive does seem cheeky though legitimate on one hand (a kind of, how much do you want us to come gesture), whilst the intention to have the trip paid for and not show up on the other is simple corruption plain and simple. Think of the number of officials (and mountains of cash spent) each year sent abroad for training (there are dozens of agencies set up in the UK to receive and arrange such delegations) that will sit through a few hours of lectures to then seek a few days of shopping.

To say something is the rule more than the exception still does not paint everyone with the same brush - and as you'll often hear from Chinese 'well...with the number of people in the country you're bound to find some...which may seem like a lot because of sheer numbers'. I don't often buy this excuse, China being way off the most densely populated country, so do feel your rant/flame does rest on more foundation than simply inciting xenophobia from one bad experience!

Will this change? If so how soon? One could argue it has been embedded in society here since way back, so perhaps is a trait of societies that previously warred and tore themselves apart. And regardless, some Chinese seem to genuinely fear this affecting social stability that could have terrible consequences.

[Guest realmayo]

- Boss, this keyboard doesn't work properly, the letter "z" sticks: this annoys me a bit, and may annoy others who have to type on it too.

- You should consider the historical reasons for this before you get annoyed.

- Erm, what historical reasons?

- The guy before you spilled some jam on the keyboard.

- Ah. Well that's fine then. I will no longer be annoyed at the keyboard. Let's move on.

- And you must never forget that the coffee machine in the New York office is broken too, that's much more serious.