Typical free-loading

[querido]

Thank you Gymnosopher.

[jbradfor]

Scoobyqueen, what I personally find interesting about this scenario is not as much that (some?) Chinese delegates want to "work the system" and benefit themselves the most. I think many people, in many different cultures (perhaps some more than others, true.....) would do that if they could.

What I personally find interesting is that (some) Chinese delegates, and only Chinese delegates, interpret the offer in that way.

Why do you think that is? Do you think it is a language issue? Do you think it's an attitude of "let's try it and see what happens"? Something else?

[jkhsu]

The title was chosen deliberately to be a bit provocative but also supposed to raise a smile at recognising this scenario (maybe). Anyway, a forum hopefully should be about different and sometimes opposing opinions.

Let me clarify my post and stance on this issue. I don't think there's anything wrong with posting your observations and thoughts. I just want to caution against making generalizations and stereotypical comments about a particular type of people. Your title is a bit ambiguous and can be interpreted in the wrong way. I am thinking about the fact that there are many ethnic Chinese who live in other parts of the world who are often referred to as "Chinese" when describing their ethnicity. I don't think (and I believe you don't think either) that a Chinese baby is born to be a freeloader. My belief is that these "bad" habits are influenced and learned from the society where that person grew up. Perhaps a better title would be "Does (mainland) Chinese society breed freeloading?"

However, I absolutely don't condone this type of behavior. Problems with Chinese society and corruption are topics that I often discuss with mainland Chinese visiting the USA. They are usually the ones to admit that the "人品" (moral quality / personality) of many mainland Chinese are not at the level of most Americans. However, when talking about "人品", we're in agreement that it's influenced by the society from which they grew up in (mainland China) and is not an inherent trait of Chinese people. That distinction has to be made clear.

Adding cardboard in the filling of dumplings, fake baby formula, mismanagement of high speed rail, reprocessing of gutter oil, counterfeit blood thinners, lead paint on toys, etc. are just a few of the things that bother me about (mainland) Chinese society. I wish (as much as you) for them to fix these things but don't know how.

[kiamo]

First of all, I'm brand new here and it is a welcome change to see delicate subjects such as this one handled with considerably more maturity than will be found elsewhere.

Regarding Scoobyqueens original post; I empathise with your annoyance and eagerness to understand something about the traits you see demonstrated at your events. Such posts/questions offered without malice or ill-intent need not be shunned, and assuming the participants in the discussion are mature enough (as seems to be the case here), it can easily prompt an interesting and constructive conversation.

I live in mainland China, and regularly run into similar feelings regarding such behaviour. These days it serves more as a reminder that I'm a 外国人, and that there is so very much I cannot appreciate about the Chinese culture and value system. This renews my curiosity and motivation to understand such differences.

There is certainly value in considering the history of a nation while trying understand cultural traits as querido seems to be implying. Taking this things into consideration can help us perhaps be more forgiving of qualities that might rub us the wrong way. That being said, there are still times when I experience something and find I must exercise patience with my feelings of "oh come on, grow up already".

China has a very short history of any considerable interaction with the rest of the world (from a trade perspective) while much of the remainder has been interacting for many hundreds of years (through trade, immigration, exploration, even war). This is a fair point to consider. European countries would have had very similar eye-brow raising sentiments towards each other in the 10th century.

How did we (in Europe and NA) reach such similar value systems and etiquette? I would suggest only through a gradual process of adoption and maturation of the total worthwhile qualities exhibited between said nations.

It's worthy to consider how to encourage such a process in order to ease the tensions, worries, and reduce the frequency of feelings of frustration towards a trait commonly found among the peoples of any country.

There are 2 posts in this thread that really stood out to me and offer considerable value to the discussion.

When I was a kid if there was a "buy one get one free" I would ask why couldn't I just have the free one Maybe its a slightly naive viewpoint they have Can't knock em for trying As you can see from all the smileies that I am taking this light heartetly.

I really appreciated this, great comment. Something that never fails to strike me hard every time is about naivety. There is no doubt that many of the traits we share in common elsewhere, have either not matured at all among many Chinese, or has matured in a different direction. Neither of these things are faults, and anyone from a different cultural background can say the same of another culture with regard to at least a few things. Realising these things certainly leaves one with a sense that the person must be rather naive.

I cannot state enough how true Shelleys comment rings. I find understanding or appreciating this naivety makes it much easier to move forward to more constructive thoughts of how to work with, or learn from the persons point of view.

I just had thought, maybe you should do it in reverse. Offer 50% refund once they had stayed/completed the entire program.

Shelley

This is a good suggestion, and the willingness to embrace a cultures traits and find ways to work with them, or even turn them into strengths, is a great quality to have.

What do you think? How else can we turn the these traits into positive interactions?

[Matty]

I think there's something else that's been missed here (unless I skipped over it), we're not looking at the "typical Chinese" here. We're looking at a group who a large portion of was probably selected as they are the most agressive in negotiations to get the best deals for their companies. These people have gotten to their positions not by being soft, cuddly and taking the first offer put on the table, they are the ones who will negotiate to the last 一分钱 and have fought amazing amounts of competition for their job due to the high population。

There may also be a few relatives of the boss there for a holiday too.

I definately wouldn't say this is representative of the "typical Chinese".

As for the majority... most of the Chinese I know are so busy with work and study they have little time to do anything else. Growing up ouside China and looking at my studies and work, I feel like more of a free loader.

I think there's something else that's been missed here (unless I skipped over it), we're not looking at the "typical Chinese" here. We're looking at a group who a large portion of was probably selected as they are the most aggressive in negotiations to get the best deals for their companies. These people have gotten to their positions not by being soft, cuddly and taking the first offer put on the table, they are the ones who will negotiate to the last 一分钱 and have fought amazing amounts of competition for their job due to the high population。

There may also be a few relatives of the boss there for a holiday too.

I definitely wouldn't say this is representative of the "typical Chinese".

As for the majority... most of the Chinese I know are so busy with work and study they have little time to do anything else. Growing up outside China and looking at my studies and work compared to that of my friends, I feel like more of a free loader.

[crazy-meiguoren]

Since this is a business situation, I would first consider that we are dealing with business types who are seeking to get the most for their money in the least amount of time. They are there to look out for their companies' interests first. This happens everywhere. They are not representing themselves as the typical Chinese people at large. I think delaying benefits until the program is complete could be the way to go... or maybe offer complimentary bowls of soft rice...

[Scoobyqueen]

@ Jbradfor you asked Why do you think that is? Do you think it is a language issue? Do you think it's an attitude of "let's try it and see what happens"? Something else?

[yialanliu]

Yes to the only question asked in the main post.

Since your title is a declarative statement stating basically that normal Chinese people free load, I would just like to add that I am surprised you are sent by your company to meet with executives from around the world. One simple explanation I can give is IF Chinese people ONLY freeload, why invite them then? But of course you are so ignorant and racist that you extrapolate what you have seen to become generalized into something typical. On top of that, you ask the question if anyone else sees what you see, not whether or not you made the right assumption because in your mind you are already right and there is no way what you think can be wrong so you are just wondering who else sees this.

[yialanliu]

China has a very short history of any considerable interaction with the rest of the world (from a trade perspective) while much of the remainder has been interacting for many hundreds of years (through trade, immigration, exploration, even war). This is a fair point to consider. European countries would have had very similar eye-brow raising sentiments towards each other in the 10th century.

That is completely untrue.

The Silk Road was utilized greatly during the Han Dynasty with the Roman Empire.

On top of this, trade is something the Chinese actually has a very long history. For instance, we imported Buddhisim from India just prior to the Tang Dynasty.

We also exported much of our knowledge to many countries such as gunpowder, paper, compass, printing press, which the West refined but nonethless first invented in China and the knowledge was given out through trading.

China also built ships that were many times the size of Christopher Columbus in the mid 15th century (before Columbus) to sail to Africa to trade.

Lastly, if you look at Japan and Korea, you can tell there are many similarities such as sharing the writing system which came from China as well.

All in all, I would say that the China traded a lot actually, just maybe not as much with Europe but around China we very much did so. While Europe can get kudos for exploring the entire world, China did do some exploring of their own.

[querido]

yialanliu, I want you to know that in my posts 3, 4, 12, 13, 18 I was disagreeing with the original poster and defending China. I regret that my posts were misunderstood. 恩

[querido]

My posts were not about the specific complaint of the original poster.

My posts were all opposed to her broad generalization, vastly more important.

She said its purpose was to generate commentary. I obliged, without flaming.

Thus, the "Popular" post #20 is simply asinine.

Isn't it embarrassing that a post defending *this* original post is "Popular"?

[jkhsu]

@querido: I just gave you a couple of thumbs ups to offset the thumbs downs. I think the reason your posts received negatives was because they didn't immediately make sense to people reading them. Perhaps if you had added more description, people would understand them better?

Also, I think post #20 tried to explain the fact that "when something is wrong, you can't just blame history" in an amusing, easy to understand way. I don't think it necessarily defends the OP's generalization, but it does highlight that a problem shouldn't be brushed aside because of historical reasons.

Also, there aren't that many nationalistic mainlaind Chinese posting here. Otherwise, you'd see a lot more flaming going on.

[imron]

Otherwise, you'd see a lot more flaming going on.

No you wouldn't because admin would generally step in to stop that from getting out of hand.

[luozhen]

Chinese are shameless about money in the Mainland, they do not realize that asking this is considered poor taste in much of the world. Everything is negotiable in China if you are willing to spend money. So it's not freeloading, it's just finding the real price. I can see someone from elsewhere asking, if I stay for only half the time, will you still pay 50% of the costs?

I don't care about the title. It's a little incendiary and would normally attract trolls, but it's so nice to live someplace (China) where stereotypes are OK in general conversation. On this score, they are more open minded than hypersensitive Westerners.

[anonymoose]

On this score, they are more open minded than hypersensitive Westerners.

I agree with this. But on the other hand, I don't think most westerners are hypersensitive. It's just that western media likes to crucify public figures for saying anything non-PC, even when what they say is what most people are thinking anyway.