The kamikaze approach to learning Chinese

[Olle Linge]

A few weeks ago, there was a thread about what level of difficulty to go for when choosing classes at language schools. I said then that I prefer taking as difficult courses as I can possibly find, provided that I have the time and determination required to at least stand a reasonable chance of surviving. Having thought a little bit more about the matter, I've now published an article about my own experience of very difficult courses (relatively speaking) and how to survive them. The article can be found here:

http://www.hackingchinese.com/?p=401

I post here for two reasons. First, I know that there are many learners on this forum who have different perspectives and experiences. Hopefully, we can learn from each other and I'm looking forward to reading any comments or regarding the kamikaze approach. I'm especially interested in people who have tried the same. Did it work out for you? Why? Why not?

Second, I know that there are people in China who want to learn Chinese, have lots of time on their hands and don't lack determination. If you're one of them, I hope you'll find this article interesting. It's of course relevant to most learners to some extent, but time is probably the most limiting factor for most people.

[jkhsu]

Interesting article and cool website. While your desciption of the kamikaze method makes sense, my question is why? I guess if your goal and first priority is to learn the most amount of Chinese in the shortest amount of time, then yeah, do it. However, to me learning Chinese is not about passing an HSK exam or saying you that you've remembered a # of characters at a particular time. It's a lifelong process of appreciating the Chinese language through reading, communication (both written and oral) and media. The kamikazi method you describe is basically saying, "take a difficult class, spend a tremendous amount of time studying Chinese and you'll see some serious improvements." I don't doubt that you'll learn more simply because you've put in more time and effort, but at what cost? I am sure most of us (who are outside of greater China) can probably take a year off of work, fly over to Taiwan or China and spend 100% of our time studying Chinese if we really really wanted to. But what would we gain by doing that vs. what we would lose (our jobs, family, money)?

My personal opinion is that you really have to enjoy the "journey" of learning Chinese because it's a long, "never ending" journey. Why do I say "never ending"? Because the most important thing is not what you know today, but how you will continue learning and not forget what you've learned in a way that is both enjoyable and compatible with your life.

A few weeks ago, there was a thread about what level of difficulty to go for when choosing classes at language schools.

I remember that thread and I also gave my thoughts there. The decision to take a particular level is based on one's personal goals and available time to get to a certain level of Chinese in a given amount of time. Neither of those decisions (the easier or harder class) are wrong in my mind but the most important part is not to get frustrated with learning Chinese and to view it as an enjoyable journey. In other words, learn the habits to continue and enjoy learning. I believe most of us who suggested the OP to start at the lower level were concerned that perhaps the OP might not have the time or ability to handle the higher level class and ultimately become frustrated, thus not enjoy the journey. While it turned out that the OP was able to handle the higher level fine, that higher level class is still, only the beginning of a long journey.

[paike]

Skipping levels in the Chinese schools bothers the heck out of me. Koreans do it all the time, thinking that if they skip from Intermediate to super advanced they will get that high HSK score. In fact, its just too hard. Language is about the brain and the mouth and the eyes, the ears coming together. If its too hard, maybe you can understand a little bit of what you see, but no way can you say that and probably don't understand what was being said.

Rant complete. =) I took classes more than once, because I wanted to master the most common stuff because I moved onto memorizing chengyu, which is essentially the top classes.

[Olle Linge]

While your desciption of the kamikaze method makes sense, my question is why? I

This is of course a valid question and the answer will of course be different for each and everyone of us, but I really think that a lot of people study Chinese don't do it because they want to reach a certain level in many, many years, regardless of how much they like the journey. I agree that such an approach is ideal for some situations, but there are many situations where it isn't. What if your education hinges on having passed an exam? What if you want to learn Chinese for a reason that isn't simply "because I want to enjoy Chinese"? In other words, I think your question is relevant, but as you point out, if the answer to why we're studying Chinese is similar to yours, this article is pointless.

Personally, I don't care about tests, number of words or anything really. I like studying Chinese, I like challenging myself and that's about it. Sure, I plan to use the language in my career, but that's only secondary to my interest in the language itself. My own rationale for advancing as fast as possible is that I like doing it. I've never enjoyed myself as much as when I threw myself headlong into the deep end and learnt to swim that way. Of course, most people aren't like that, so the reason I wrote the article was rather to show that it's possible and that it's something you can do, provided you have the time and determination.

I believe most of us who suggested the OP to start at the lower level were concerned that perhaps the OP might not have the time or ability to handle the higher level class and ultimately become frustrated, thus not enjoy the journey.

I included a reference to the previous thread just to show where my thinking came from and what triggered the article, I didn't mean to say that my article was meant to be taken as advice on what to do. If I remember correctly, I did include a caveat in that thread as well, regarding available time and so on. I just try to show how it can be done, not necessarily saying that it would be a good idea for everyone.

Skipping levels in the Chinese schools bothers the heck out of me.

And it should, which is the reason I bring up the problem several times. If you're going to do something like this, you have to be aware of the risks and make sure you cover what you have skipped in other ways. In the example I mentioned in the article, I studied the books I had skipped on the side with the help of a tutor provided by the university. It worked quite well. Of course, I didn't learn the material as well as you do when you study a class carefully, but I still covered it.

However, advancing to higher levels quicker means that comprehension increases quite rapidly. If I can follow what's going on in the advanced class and then study what I missed in the intermediate, I will most likely be able to fill in the gaps more or less automatically if I just expose myself to enough Chinese. The structures and words used in intermediate textbooks are quite common and provided that our listening/reading comprehension is good, we will be able to read/listen to lots of naturally produced speech/texts and learn how these structures and words are used.

So, in essence, I agree with you that one should be very careful skipping textbooks and one must be dead sure to cover what one has missed. Still, the most important thing that might be missed is not in the textbooks. I think some people mentioned this in the other thread, but pronunciation is arguably the most dangerous area to skip. The more advanced the class is, the less focus on pronunciation. Most foreigners need to focus on pronunciation all the time at all levels if we wish to attain a reasonably good level. Skipping textbooks is okay for me, but skipping the associated focus on pronunciation is not. That's something we have to do ourselves, otherwise the kamikaze approach is actually going to lead to our deaths.

[Saluki]

Snigel your website post is very helpful. Thank you. I'm bookmarking your site.

"There are several theories out there describing how to best learn a foreign language (or indeed to learn anything). ..."

In the last few decades some of the academic research in psychology and related fields has moved away from disorders to study what has become known as 'positive' psychology. Quite a few researchers have studied expertise--how people get good at things. A number of principles have come from this, and the most basic and common one is that 'struggle is not an option.' That is, to get better at anything, one must constantly push oneself just beyond one's current level of ability. It should feel like you are writing with your left hand. Your approach fits nicely with what's known about expertise.

Two great introductions for nonacademic audiences are Geoffrey Colvin's "Talent is Overrated" and Daniel Coyle's "The Talent Code." I highly recommend them. They have helped me in my approach to learning Mandarin, improving my work, and other things.

[jkhsu]

This is of course a valid question and the answer will of course be different for each and everyone of us, but I really think that a lot of people study Chinese don't do it because they want to reach a certain level in many, many years, regardless of how much they like the journey. I agree that such an approach is ideal for some situations, but there are many situations where it isn't.

What I was talking about is not an "approach" or "method" for learning but a frame of mind. I am not saying that one should slow down and take lots of time to learn Chinese, just for the sake of learning slowly and enjoying the journey. What I am saying is to make sure you understand why you need to do this "kamikazi" method in the first place because at the end of the day, it's more important that you build a habit / way of life that allows you to remember and continue learning, because there is a lot of Chinese to learn. If you learn something really fast but never use it afterwards, what's the point of learning it fast?

What if your education hinges on having passed an exam? What if you want to learn Chinese for a reason that isn't simply "because I want to enjoy Chinese"? In other words, I think your question is relevant, but as you point out, if the answer to why we're studying Chinese is similar to yours, this article is pointless.

Assuming that our priorities are to pass a test, a class or get a degree, I am not sure your "kamikazi" method is providing anything new that most serious learners in these forums don't know already. I think it's a given that one should step out of their comfort zone, challenge themselves and put in time / effort to learning Chinese. And as you said, one should try for something (given that one has enough time) that is more challenging than just slightly above one's level. I don't disagree with that. However, I'm probably not going to put down what I am reading now and pick up "Journey to the West" and try to tackle that now. (And I don't think that's what your article is telling me to do)

What I think is more important is having that motivation to continue learning Chinese and making the use of Chinese an enjoyable part of your life rather than a chore.

[Olle Linge]

Two great introductions for nonacademic audiences are Geoffrey Colvin's "Talent is Overrated" and Daniel Coyle's "The Talent Code." I highly recommend them. They have helped me in my approach to learning Mandarin, improving my work, and other things.

I count myself as fairly academic, but I do still enjoy reading more lightweight approaches to language learning, so thanks for the recommendations. If I'm going to read just one of the two, which one would you suggest?

What I was talking about is not an "approach" or "method" for learning but a frame of mind.

Point taken. However, I think that I haven't expressed myself very clearly. The idea here is not to go through courses/textbooks as quickly as possible and then consider that part of Chinese learning out of the way, but rather to challenge yourself to make sure than you're learning as much as you are capable of. This is of course different for different people and I never meant this kamikaze approach to be used by everyone. Personally, I grow bored if things aren't challenging enough. This doesn't mean that I try to reach as high as possible as quickly as possible and then ignore more basic knowledge, it just means that attending classes that are considered "too difficult" is a great help for me and it allows me to stay focused. What I'm trying to say is that the challenge is the point, and that that causes some people (like me) to learn more efficiently/get more out of the time they spend.

Assuming that our priorities are to pass a test, a class or get a degree, I am not sure your "kamikazi" method is providing anything new that most serious learners in these forums don't know already.

This is of course true, but obviously I didn't write this article with only advanced learners in mind. In fact, most articles I've written (and most threads on this forum) deal with beginner-oriented topics. I'm not saying this is useless for advanced learners, I'm just saying that I didn't write this to present something new to the world of advanced language learners. Still, I do think it's very stimulating to receive critical comments, because they force me to reconsider and analyse things from a different perspective.

What I think is more important is having that motivation to continue learning Chinese and making the use of Chinese an enjoyable part of your life rather than a chore.

Agreed. One of the first things I always tell people who want to learn anything is that if they hope to get anywhere at all, they have to find a way to incorporate what they want to learn in their daily lives in a way that they genuinely enjoy. As I said above, the kamikaze article is just about one small part and is of course very far from being the most important thing to consider when learning a language. Still, I do think it is one thing which is worth considering, regardless of what conclusion you reach. I mean, even if you reach a different conclusion than I do, don't you think it's worthwhile to consider the question in the first place?