Lucky numbers

[jadeblomma]

I bought a tote bag in China last year with the numbers '08' on one side of the bag. I thought it was fun since I live in Stockholm (area code 08), and I also understood from the shop attendant that those were lucky numbers.

I have read a lot about this topic when it comes to pronunciation, Feng Shui, the zodiac etc, but still have not found a good explanation to what is so lucky about the number zero. Can anyone help me?

[Iriya]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_in_Chinese_culture

Never heard anything about the number zero being lucky.

[fanglu]

I would assume it's refering to 2008

[Danny2312]

Zero is not a lucky number. The number that the Chinese believe is a lucky number would be '8' because in Cantonese it sounds like '发', which means prosperous.

[edelweis]

The Olympics opening ceremony was held at 08:08:08pm on 08/08/(20)08 for that reason (i.e. 8 being a lucky number). So I agree with fanglu that "08" is probably a reference to year 2008 and specifically to that event.

[jadeblomma]

So is it only in Cantonese that 8 sounds like the word for prosperity, and not in Mandarine? Could 发 fa1 in Mandarine also have that meaning?

[jbradfor]

In modern Mandarin 八 and 发 are not quite pronounced the same: ba1 vs fa1. However, every Chinese person I've met, whether from the north or the south, considers 8 to be a lucky number. [Or maybe I should say that even if they themself does not consider 8 lucky, they know the association in Chinese culture.]

[Nitpick time. 发 does not really, in itself, mean prosperity. 发财 does, or more accurately, to get rich.]

LATER EDIT: now that I think about it, 八 and 发 are not quite pronounced the same in modern Cantonese either. 八 is pronounced baat3, and 发(發) is pronounced faat3. So they are equally close in both languages now. I'm sure one of our resident language historians can say more.

[Hofmann]

My guess: The Cantonese said 八 sounds like 發, because it shares the same final (and note that finals are more diverse in Cantonese than Mandarin) and almost the same place of articulation, so everybody else just agreed regardless of what language they speak.

More info: 八 and 發 used to share the same initial, but not the same final.

[renzhe]

I assumed that "lucky numbers" have been around for quite a while, and characters were pronounced quite differently back then. Does anyone know how far back this goes?

[Iriya]

The original pronunciations must have been very similar indeed. 八 and 發 read hachi and hatsu in modern Japanese (which were pachi and patsu before the p->h sound shift).

[Hofmann]

Both "ti" and "tu" were used in Japanese to say the Middle Chinese final /t/, so in a way, both of them sounded like /pat/ to the Japanese. Someone who knows something about on'yomi might be able to provide further input.

Regarding historical pronunciations of 八 and 發, Baxter reconstructs them as /pret/ and /pjat/ respectively in Old Chinese. I don't think this lucky number relationship developed during that period. In Middle Chinese, Baxter says /pɛt/ and /pjwot/. Probably not here either. I don't know their values in 平水韻 (金 Dynasty), but I know they don't rhyme (八 rhymes with 黠 and 發 rhymes with 月).