五字訣 - 六合八法拳 - "Five Character Secrets" the classic text of Liuhebafa

[Jinxx]

Hi. I'm working on a new translation of the 五字訣, the "Five Character Secrets" or "五字歌訣" as I've seen it sometimes.

This is the classic text of the internal (soft) martial art known as Liu He Ba Fa (Lok Hap Baat Faat), or 六合八法拳 if you're Chinese. ;)

I'm making this translation as a student of both the form and 文言 in general, under the aegis of an aging 武術 master. He's supposed to approve of the text once I have something to show, but until then I'm going to hack out something I can use. There is one existing English translation, but our 師父 scoffs at it.

Anyway, suffice it to say that the project has noble aims that reach beyond my own interests, namely the preservation and dissemination of a beautiful martial art.

So, on to the questions:

The very first line has me somewhat confused:

心意本無法

1. Now, some translate this as: "Mind/intent is the basis of methodlessness"

2. But is it possible that this phrase really means: "Mind/intent's root is methodlessness"

心意(之)本無法

or maybe more completely:

心意(之)本(為)無法

3. Or perhaps the 本 could be read in its adverbial sense, "originally," so it would read:

心意(topic), 本無法

"Speaking of conscious intent, originally it was without method."

Or something. I hope you get the idea. Also keep in mind none of these word choices are meant to be final, I'm just trying to nail down the grammar.

Any and all help is gratefully appreciated!

[Hofmann]

Context? Can you paste the whole thing?

[Daan]

My initial reaction would be #3, but as Hofmann says, it'd help if you could provide the context

[rezaf]

here is the context: http://blog.163.com/why_3285216/blog/static/46097994200611832500/

I don't think here is the place to discuss something like this as these texts in martial arts were written so that only people who practiced them could understand them so it's not only a linguistic problem. Probably you should ask your teacher first about its meaning in Chinese or discuss its meaning on Chinese martial arts forums then you'll have a better idea about what you want to translate.

[imron]

My initial thought would also be #3. As an aside, I don't think "5 Character Secrets" is really a good translation for the title.

Firstly, I don't think that 訣 necessarily means secret, but rather "高明的方法". It can also mean: 用事物的主要内容编成的顺口的便于记忆的词句, which seems quite appropriate for the context too.

Secondly, the '5 Character' part only makes sense for Chinese, as each line/segment is made up of 5 characters. This will almost certainly not be true of the English translation and so translating it for the title is IMO quite meaningless.

In the context of Liu He Ba Fa, you could think of the title as meaning something like: A series of short segments that distill the core principles of Liu He Ba Fa in an easy to remember way.

Which is far too wordy for an English title, but in my mind any English title should try to convey the essence of that meaning, rather than just being a literal translation of the Chinese.

Rezaf is also correct in that you're going to have to discuss the specific meanings of each segment in detail with your teacher. Then build a translation from your discussions, rather than just being a literal translation of the Chinese. For example, what does it mean for concious intent to be without method?

My guess is that the reason your teacher thinks current English translations are rubbish is because they are translated far too literally from the Chinese and for some concepts, a single English word will not really convey the underlying meaning. See for example here.

[Jinxx]

First, thanks much for the replies.

1. Here's another link to the full text.

http://www.liuhebafa...t-loo-book1.htm

Here's the first few lines:

心意本無法 有法是虛無 虛無得自然 無法不容恕

2. To Rezaf:

I don't think here is the place to discuss something like this as these texts in martial arts were written so that only people who practiced them could understand them so it's not only a linguistic problem. Probably you should ask your teacher first about its meaning in Chinese or discuss its meaning on Chinese martial arts forums then you'll have a better idea about what you want to translate.

Well, I agree and disagree. I'm here because the particular questions I'm bringing here are linguistic ones (or I think they are). Your responses have already helped with this one line, mostly to reassure me that I wasn't missing something obvious, per the use of 本.

So, the intricacies of literal vs. figurative translation I will indeed discuss with my teacher -- though I'm happy to talk about it here too, with anyone who will. Again, I'd like help as a chinese scholar from you lovely folks.... the interpretative part can come a little later, once I get a little more confident I'm not misreading these poetic phrases.

3. To Imron;

Firstly, I don't think that 訣 necessarily means secret, but rather "高明的方法". It can also mean: 用事物的主要内容编成的顺口的便于记忆的词句, which seems quite appropriate for the context too.

Secondly, the '5 Character' part only makes sense for Chinese, as each line/segment is made up of 5 characters. This will almost certainly not be true of the English translation and so translating it for the title is IMO quite meaningless.

In the context of Liu He Ba Fa, you could think of the title as meaning something like: A series of short segments that distill the core principles of Liu He Ba Fa in an easy to remember way.

Which is far too wordy for an English title, but in my mind any English title should try to convey the essence of that meaning, rather than just being a literal translation of the Chinese.

I agree with all of this, and I like your suggestions. I'm not really working on the wording just yet (as this will all be tweaked later with my teacher).

What I am interested in, are the structural relationships between these characters, and specifically whether a character is/may be acting in a structural capacity I'm not aware of. Thus the question about 本.

4.

My guess is that the reason your teacher thinks current English translations are rubbish is because they are translated far too literally from the Chinese and for some concepts, a single English word will not really convey the underlying meaning. See for example here.

No, actually I think he doesn't like the translation because it takes too much interpretative license. My goal eventually is to find the fewest English words that convey the correct meaning. Over the course of a text, a word can be loaded with secondary meanings to help round it out -- we may take some license at his direction, translating the same character different ways in different places, etc.

5.

Now that that is all cleared up, let's get back to business:

As for the title, Imron -- I agree about 訣 being inadequately translated by "secrets."

But I don't mind so much keeping the "Five Character" part -- since the text will include the Chinese, with notes on their meanings, so the title retains its sense.

But I could also go with something as simple as:

"Principles of Liu He Ba Fa"

or:

"Secret Axioms of Liu He Ba Fa"

or even "Incantations" to capture the flavor of "歌訣," plus the fact that these were treated like magic formulas, in the Daoist sense of magic.

Or something really crazy and culturally transgressive like "Koans of Liu He Ba Fa" to highlight their role as contemplative tools...

[Jinxx]

My questions about the next couple lines:

1.心意本無法

2. 有法是虛無

3. 虛無得自然

4. 無法不容恕

My first draft renditions:

1. Conscious intent is originally without method.

2. To have a method, this is emptiness.

Previous translator (Paul Dillon): “Use the method of emptiness.”

The text has been fairly reliably dated to the 13th century AD. Was 是 still used primarily as a demonstrative, "This" ? Or was its meaning shifting already towards the copula role, "to be" by this time? My guess is that it was about halfway there (considering that it still retains the demonstrative flavor).

And is the translator's assumption that the 有法 is in command form, at all valid? I'd say not -- it seems like 有 is in its contrasting role, against 無. 有法/無法= Having method / not having method.

3. Emptiness obtains a natural state.

4. To be without a method is unforgivable.

This is Dillon's rendition. I'm really not sure about it though.

I feel it must hang on the relationship between 無法 and 不容.

A.

If 無法 is the topic, it can act as passive object as well to the 不容恕. This gives us: "To be without a method is unforgivable."

B.

It seems that 無法 could also be active agent, giving us: "Methodlessness is unforgiving."

C. A possible compromise could be:

"Without a method, one cannot forgive." This might retain the ambiguity of the original. These phrases are meant to be ambiguous. My hope is that you enjoy playing with them as I do!

Again, any and all suggestions are welcome.

[rezaf]

I am at no level in Chinese or martial arts or English to discuss anything but my question is aren't 心 and 意 two different things? Why do you translate them as one word(conscious intent)?

[Jinxx]

@ Rezaf:

Well, not to be snarky, but "conscious intent" is indeed two words. It may not be what we settle on ultimately, but certainly it's better than what the previous translator had, "Mind/intent."

"Conscious" stands in for 心

"Intent" is of course 意

心 is often "mind," or of course "heart." But here, paired with 意, I see it as "awareness," or "minding" in the sense of "小心."

But I could be wrong.

[Guest realmayo]

I know nothing of older uses of Chinese words, but my understanding of old Chinese poems is that complementary symmetry was commonly sought after, by which I mean in its simplest that in two lines : ABCDE / ABCDE, the AB in the first line will be the same part of speech as the AB in the second, and so on. Or the DEs will both relate to the natural world. Those kind of symmetries. Ok, that's pretty obvious, but it might help tease out more meaning from what we've got?

The third character in all four lines can act as a verb, so I'm assuming that's what it's doing each time. So could we read it as: AA B CC for all four lines? First symmetry is: the B = a verb.

Next: the AA parts, ie the first two characters in each line. Is it coincidence that line 2 starts 有法 and line 4 starts 無法? These are opposites, as are the next characters that follow, ie 是 in line 2 and 不 in line 4

How about the AA parts of lines 1 and 3? I think 心意 and 虛無 are being contrasted here, simply by the structure of the lines, before we even get to the meaning.

.

Also compare the 本 and the 得. Can we translate 得 as "results in", "begets"? If so, does it work to translate 本 as the opposite (direction), ie "comes from" or "is caused by"? Or "is/comes (in the state of)"?

My hope is that you enjoy playing with them as I do!

Yes defintely! But I meant to go to bed an hour ago.......

Simple intent comes free of any method.

But it is with method that you find the void.

Out of the void comes nature.

Without method you cannot find forgiveness.

[rezaf]

I don't know anything about liuhebafa but a xinyiliuhequan martial artist once explained the six harmonies to me and if I remember correctly he told me that xin is instinct and yi is the awareness over instict and that's why they first say xin and then yi. As he said xin should be free of any thoughts for example when you attack a martial artist he won't think about which move or animal he wants to use and his first reaction would be following his instinct (xin) but at the same time while he is doing the move on the opponent he is aware of what he is doing which is yi. That's why I think translating xin as conscious might not be the best choice but perhaps heart or instinct would be closer.

[dr_k_conor]

The questions and comments in reply are of interest. The topic covers the 'documents' associated with the martial-health exercise now generally called LiuHe BaFa- 六合八法拳 [which seems to have a history of being variously named].

To offer a context proper translation would require a good understanding of language use at the time the document 'five word' verse of 'adieu' [usually called 'secret']...and perhaps also some knowledge of the verse documents intent [why was it written].

A comment is made that "The text has been fairly reliably dated to the 13th century AD. "...without giving the actual source to verify that claim. It is usual, for the documents related to the LHBF exercise to just give the name of the author. The usual [unproven] alleged author is claimed to be Li Dong-feng ( 李東風 )..east-wind Li [whose name does not appear in any of the historical texts after the Song Dynasty. http://waterspirit6x8.tripod.com/id55.html

It can also be said that teaching verses, in series, 3-, 4-, 5, etc. can be viewed as somewhat characteristic of the Dynasty period when written. I am aware of a similar Poem of Farewell to Liu Man, Song dynasty (960–1279), 12th century. http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/1989.363.17

Thus, this sort of document is not unique.

As for the documents associated with LHBF, those considered archaic are not verifiable. However, the known written history comes from its' contemporary source: Wu Yi-hui 吳翼翬 who only presents, what he was told by the three teachers that introduced him to this styling of martial exercise.

I would also like to add, there are a number of 'documents' associated with the LiuHe BaFa- exercise:

1. a verse offering of the LiuHe 六合 and the BaFa 八法 the theoretical vs practical ideas.

2. the 5-words of 'farewell' which is somewhat redundant but does have levels of intent.

3. the names of the 66-forms for the Nanjing styling of Wu Yi-hui which clearly show academic ability

http://waterspirit6x8.tripod.com/id11.html

4. lastly, there are addended texts, usually simple, that attempt to expand on important concepts.

Thus far, again, I praise the efforts and suggestions already made on the language aspects of this subject.

[dr_k_conor]

The naming and documents with historical context and the schema of topics networked to the LiuHe-BaFa [ LiuHo PaFa ] poem and exercise is not an easy topic. Briefly, it is  六合八法 as a text and as a concept applied to boxing. Also, some insist on a formal 

naming which complexes the topic: with 華嶽希夷門 [Mt. Hua Yue 'Xi-Yi' Men 'sect' ] with  心意六合八法 xin-yi LHBF...cojoined

resulting as a said 'official' school long verbose name: 華嶽希夷門 + 心意六合八法. This naming falsely credits a link or source to

sage Chen Tuan of bo village entitled Xi-Yi and also 心意六合八法, a joining of martial methods related to LiuHe-boxing 六合拳 and also of BaFa-boxing 八法拳 .  

The common LHBF seen is the Nanking [nanjing] styling of teacher Wu Yi -hui  吴翼翚 who did write the 66-form names [a very differing language style than the 'five word-poem'. Teacher Wu also seems to have further injected aspects of Lu Hong Ba Shi-boxing 呂紅八勢拳 [ 呂紅八拳 ]. This injected style, LH8 may be derived from 金刚八式  JinGan BaShi

and/ or 八 極   BaJi: eight extremes [there also is a lengthy derivation of this styles naming, the ba-ji 八極 , ba-shi 把式 , ba-shi 八式, ba zi 鈀子

References:

http://swz.weebly.com/jin-gang-ba-shi.html

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&p=152782

[OldStudent]

Jinxx,

 

I'm an old student of John Chung Li's, and have been looking at both his translation, the translation by Paul Dillon, and the Chinese for quite a while now.  You need to understand that this text has a fair amount which is either derived from or meant to resemble Taoist language  -- think things like Laozi or Taoist health "secrets", and Buddhist language, along with having a whole lot to do with the exercises itself.

 

心意本無法

 

心意 -- sometimes translated as "mind-intent" is the name of the exercise, which is 心意 六合八法拳, or 心意功 If you go look up the six combinations, one of them is a combination of these two, actually.

 

The whole phrase can be translated as "the basis of xinyi (gong), is "no method"" with the "no method" being similar to the Daoist 為無為.

 

Likewise, the next 5 characters give the 有法 comparison, the way the first chapter of Laozi compares 有and 無 . 虛無is also a term of art in Daoism, think of it as the form part of the 無為 essence.

 

More later if I get a chance, hope this helps.