Capital punishment in Taiwan

[bhchao]

Amid the growing momentum in South Korea to replace the death penalty with a non-commutable life sentence, a death row inmate there opposes replacing capital punishment with life imprisonment. Here are his reasons: http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200603/kt2006032217450911990.htm

If serial killers like him have equal rights as any other human being, then they should also have the right to have their wish of being executed fulfilled. Of course many will disagree with me on this.

From a liberal perspective, Taiwan and South Korea are more socially advanced than the US. There were 60 executions in the US in 2005. Taiwan and South Korea, both being democratic societies, had three executions and zero executions in 2005, respectively. South Korea has not had an execution since 1998.

[in_lab]

If serial killers like him have equal rights as any other human being, then they should also have the right to have their wish of being executed fulfilled. Of course many will disagree with me on this.

Are you saying that "any other human being" has the right to be executed?

[bhchao]

Are you saying that "any other human being" has the right to be executed?

A person who kills the elderly or senior citizens, commits a huge crime in a Confucian society. In ancient China, killing the elderly or your own relatives is a major offense punishable by death.

So I am not surprised that this man received the death sentence by the high court in South Korea. Anyone who breaches this Confucian code of honor of respecting or deferring to the elderly deserves to be punished severely, at least from an Asian perspective.

If those who say that the government has no right to take away the life of any human being, then what should be done about this man who insists that people like him should be executed rather than spend the rest of their lives in jail in misery?

Isn't spending one's entire life in jail the equivalent of taking away the offender's life? Spiritually that would not be any different from taking away the offender's life through capital punishment.

[zhenhui]

There are many debates regarding the death penalty. This reminds me of an incident whereby a 25 year old Vietnamese Australian man who was sentenced to death because he was smuggling drugs through Singapore. (15 grams of heroin will cause you to have the death penalty.) There were alot of protest going on in Australia because of that.

IMHO, in Asia, we are thinking in a more 宁可杀错，不可放过 sort of way, it's better to get rid of those that might do harm to others and even if that might be a mistake than to allow that possibility to arise.

In a country like Australia, where there's no death penalty, they believe alot in human rights, that the criminal system is not perfect and so there might be a couple of convicted criminals who are innocent and they should not be killed in case a mistake was made.

[roddy]

If those who say that the government has no right to take away the life of any human being, then what should be done about this man who insists that people like him should be executed rather than spend the rest of their lives in jail in misery?

He'll spend the rest of his life in misery, or kill himself. The government is under no obligation to arrange death for anyone, jailed or not. Death on request seems an even more dubious proposition to me than capital punishment does.

[in_lab]

Isn't spending one's entire life in jail the equivalent of taking away the offender's life?

No, spending life in jail can be better than death or worse than death, depending on the prison.

[Ferno]

From a liberal perspective, Taiwan and South Korea are more socially advanced than the US. There were 60 executions in the US in 2005. Taiwan and South Korea, both being democratic societies, had three executions and zero executions in 2005, respectively. South Korea has not had an execution since 1998.

you're comparing these 2 countries to the US's much higher population, much more varied races, wealth gap, and drug problems?

-unless you consider those things to be socially inadvanced, even though they are beyond control..

[Lu]

I don't really see the connection between 'varied races' and the number of executions. A wealth gap can be made smaller by the government (by imposing higher taxes on richer people) and is therefore not beyond control. Drug problems are a bit harder, but a lot can be tried to make that problem smaller.

And no matter how many more people live in the US than in S-Korea, even relatively 0 is much less than 60.

As to the inmate requesting death penalty: since when do criminals get to choose their punishment??

[bhchao]

you're comparing these 2 countries to the US's much higher population, much more varied races, wealth gap, and drug problems?

There is no direct correlation between population and the violent crime rate. China has almost 5 times the population of the US, but the total number of violent crimes such as murders are lower in China than they are in the US.

I bet violent crimes per 1,000 or per 100,000 individuals are even lower in China than in the US. However the number of executions per capita in China exceeds that of the US.

South Korea has two times the population of Taiwan, but the violent crime rate in South Korea is lower than Taiwan's.

Also New York City has a population of over 8 million, yet it is the safest big city in the US.

Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan have far lower violent crimes per capita than the US. No offense to the US, but I would say that these three East Asian societies are more socially advanced societies. This would partially explain the low number of executions in those three societies.

IMHO, in Asia, we are thinking in a more 宁可杀错，不可放过 sort of way, it's better to get rid of those that might do harm to others and even if that might be a mistake than to allow that possibility to arise.

I believe in the notion of "innocent until proven guilty". Some countries have a system of "guilty until proven innocent", which causes a lot of problems such as bias against the defendant that would affect the final verdict.

...that the criminal system is not perfect and so there might be a couple of convicted criminals who are innocent and they should not be killed in case a mistake was made.

That's a very strong case against capital punishment, and a good reason to replace it with life imprisonment. However if the convicted defendant really committed the crime, such as the one mentioned in the article, throwing the death penalty into the equation would not be unreasonable for many people. At that point it would be an issue of deciding which is better, death penalty or lifetime imprisonment.

[Ferno]

Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan have far lower violent crimes per capita than the US. No offense to the US, but I would say that these three East Asian societies are more socially advanced societies. This would partially explain the low number of executions in those three societies.

maybe, but imagine if those countries were not almost 100% homologous in race as they are now. Imagine they had a large percentage of poor blacks + a stream of Latino immigrants and a history of racial tension. Would they remain "socially advanced"? I don't think it's fair to compare the countries like that - statistics are one thing, but saying that they are more socially advanced doesn't make any sense because that would mean that they would become "unadvanced" if you change the environment a bit and violent crime goes up..

Small countries also tend to have an easier time with things..

[bhchao]

Well NYC is a melting pot of immigrants living next to each other in a densely populated city. (ex. Pakistanis, Indians, Koreans, Chinese, and Filipinos living next to each other in Queens; Puerto Ricans and African-Americans living in Brooklyn and Harlem, an overall poor neighborhood adjacent to the wealthy Upper West and Upper East Sides)

Yet NYC, despite its huge population, wide range of ethnic diversity, and huge income gap between the wealthy and the poor, manages to be the safest metropolitan area in the US with little ethnic tension. Part of the reason lies in the tolerance for diversity, and for other immigrants and cultures.

This phenomenon, combined with NYC's overall culture and populism, explains why it deviates from the US mainland. Some people have joked that NYC is a group of islands off the coast of Europe.

Tang China during the Zhenguan and Kaiyuan reigns was the most populous and culturally sophisticated society in the world. Its greatness stems from its tolerance for cultural diversity. There were Han Chinese, Uighurs, Middle Eastern traders, Koreans, students from Nara Japan living in China. Furthermore, the death penalty was abolished during Kaiyuan.

In my opinion, being a socially advanced society not only encompasses tolerance for diversity. It also includes a highly educated populace influenced by age-old principles. In the case of Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan, all three societies are substantially influenced by Confucian principles; including the emphasis on learning and education; and respect for hierarchy and authority. (Ironically, Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan have preserved Confucian morals to a greater degree than China)

As a result, it is not surprising to find that per capita murders in these three societies are far lower than in the US. With a Confucian commitment to learning and education, these three societies have yielded far less violent crimes than the US. A highly educated populace is key in preventing crime. With an educated populace knowing the difference between moral right and wrong, the potential for committing murder is reduced, and with less murders, the number of executions is also reduced.

Why is the per capita murder rate far lower in Japan than it is in the US? A reason is that Japanese citizens are fully aware of the shame and disgrace that any crime they commit would bring to their families. Family honor is an important quality in Confucian societies. You commit a crime and you will disgrace your family name. And if your family name is disgraced, other families will forever look down on your family.

[Ferno]

if NYC has a lower crime rate it's not because of some communal mindset of peace, rather something like policing. And I bet it will still be huge compared to Tokyo.

again you speculate why Japan's murder rate is so low... ignoring that they are almost 100% ethnically homogenous. If they have the Confucian culture like you say, it won't change the fact that other ethnicities or demographic groups will bring in their own cultures, right?

you don't have to even leave north america - compare canada's and the US's per capita murder rate. A recent rash of shootings in Toronto shocked the Canadian public because they haven't seen stuff like this before and they're crying for gun control - but the people involved are young, black, male, poor and with gang connections. A very specific demographic.

[bhchao]

again you speculate why Japan's murder rate is so low... ignoring that they are almost 100% ethnically homogenous. If they have the Confucian culture like you say, it won't change the fact that other ethnicities or demographic groups will bring in their own cultures, right?

What would these other ethnicities bring in their own cultures then? The argument that having a heterogeneous, diverse population produces a crime-ridden society can be countered by the fact that despite the diverse mix of cultures in Singapore and Malaysia, where there is an intermixing of Chinese, Malays, and Indians(including Sikhs and Tamils) in both societies, there is peaceful cultural co-existence in both societies.

Proper etiquette and social manners like courtesy and decency are cherished Confucian values. If you treat others with respect, others will respond in the same way. It's what helps make Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan civil societies resulting in very low violent crimes per capita. It also helps explain the peaceful co-existence among different ethnicities in Malaysia and Singapore. Having more heterogeneity still does not change the fact that these societies are currently more civil societies than the U.S. Even if more heterogeneity comes to fruition, like in Malaysia and Singapore, I doubt that these societies will engage in violent crimes against foreigners.

There are over one million ethnic Koreans living in Japan. Yet violent cases of ethnic animosity in Japan are extremely rare.

Take the aftermath of the tsunami for example. People in South and Southeast Asia after the tsunami did not engage in the massive looting and social unrest that occurred in New Orleans. I would say that the US is techno and financially advanced, but socially backwards compared to many Asian countries.

Many people will not dispute the statement that Taiwanese, generally speaking, are more polite and courteous than many of their Mainland counterparts. A reason is that the Confucian value system in Taiwan is stronger than on the Mainland. Social refinement in Asian countries is a product of education, and being aware of one's expected responsibilities within the family and community, whether it be obligations to one's parents or obligations between worker and boss.

Moral self-cultivation not only yields individual economic benefits, but also brings order and stability to the family, which in turn brings peace between families. Peace between families produces a prosperous community. Prosperous communities result in a domino effect that helps produce a civil society. A civil society creates an orderly environment conducive to economic growth (high per capita incomes, high per capita GDPs, and low violent crimes per capita).

Social unrefinement creates the opposite effect. People who have this trait have a greater potential to deviate from established norms, and to commit crimes. If millions of citizens had this trait, it would harm the socio-economic progress of the nation.

Socio-economic progress would be a far more effective deterrent than the death penalty in reducing the murder rate. Once socio-economic progress is achieved, a country that has the death penalty would then have an easier time thinking about abolishing the death penalty, in the likes of Taiwan and South Korea. And the building block that creates the domino effect to socio-economic progress begins with educational attainment at the individual level.

[Ferno]

okay, i dont want to seem racist, and I don't know how sensitive or PC this board is to this type of thing, but to get straight to th point: blacks, and to some degree poor latinos. Blacks make up 80% of US prisons. In concern to your New Orleans example: almost all the looters were black.

This cannot be compared to different ethnicities of Asians in Asian countries.

I pretty much agree with everything else..

[bhchao]

There is one exception: Taiwan's legislature is not civil.

Strangely, some politicians act like barbarians in a zoo.

I bet that if you combine the televised footage of all the fights that occurred in legislature, and divide it into 20 TV episodes, viewer ratings will shoot through the roof.

[Ian_Lee]

Still not over the topic yet?

Regarding Confucian ethics, actually it is in the gut of Confucian thought that "Those who kill deserve execution". Even Confucius himself ordered an execution when he was an Official in the Lu Kingdom!

And low crime rate has no relationship with capital punishment. Singapore is a low crime society. But on per capita basis, Singapore executed more criminals every year than any other country in the world (including PRC).

And of course high crime rate has also no relationship with capital punishment. Shenzehn routinely executed criminals while HK just locked them up. But I don't see Shenzhen safer than HK.

I am anti-death sentence especially those handed out by the Mainland courts. Until very recently, the Provincial High Court was the last appeal resort for any death inmates. And the way the trial is conducted -- no media coverage, frequent lack of forensic evidence like DNA testing, verdict influenced by current political climate,...etc -- are very disadvantageous to the defendants.

Anyway, IMO the death row inmate should be put into better productive use for redemption to the society rather than just a bullet in the neck. Portuguese Macau used to send the death row inmates into exile in Portuguese East Timor. The death row inmates in Mainland should be sent to Tibet to do hard labor on infrastructure projects like Qinghai-Tibet railway!

[bhchao]

Regarding Confucian ethics, actually it is in the gut of Confucian thought that "Those who kill deserve execution". Even Confucius himself ordered an execution when he was an Official in the Lu Kingdom!

Not quite true. Confucian thought placed more emphasis on restraining oneself and self-cultivation to produce a civil society than using the law of the land. Executions were more of a tool that 法家 thinkers would advocate.

Singapore's justice system may seem harsh. However I would support the punishment meted out to offenders like Michael Fay. When the caning sentence was passed, Asian countries unanimously sided with Singapore. I remember many non-Asians in the US supporting the sentence, saying that this kind of punishment is needed badly in the US.

I am anti-death sentence especially those handed out by the Mainland courts. Until very recently, the Provincial High Court was the last appeal resort for any death inmates. And the way the trial is conducted -- no media coverage, frequent lack of forensic evidence like DNA testing, verdict influenced by current political climate,...etc -- are very disadvantageous to the defendants

The judicial procedures on the Mainland definitely need to be reformed. It is unsettling when the death sentence is also applied to economic crimes. Sometimes death sentences handed out by the Mainland courts coincide with "tough on crime" campaigns. In these events, executions are carried out swiftly just for the sake of giving a message to potential offenders, without reviewing the actual guilt of the defendant.

The best way to tacke corruption and prevent economic crimes is by actively promoting a sense of honesty among citizens. This is currently an issue in South Korea that the government is aggressively tackling head-on. Even though education levels are high, plagiarism and other forms of cheating is not an uncommon issue in many schools, where punishments for such dishonesty are light. The government is working with education officials and teachers in rectifying this problem. If you tolerate such behavior, the students will grow up to commit unscruplous behaviors in society.

Anyway, IMO the death row inmate should be put into better productive use for redemption to the society rather than just a bullet in the neck. Portuguese Macau used to send the death row inmates into exile in Portuguese East Timor. The death row inmates in Mainland should be sent to Tibet to do hard labor on infrastructure projects like Qinghai-Tibet railway!

I would support that.

[Ian_Lee]

Bhchao:

孔子誅少正卯

孔子曰：「人有惡者五，而盜竊不與焉：一曰，心達而險；二曰，行辟而堅；三曰，言偽而辯；四曰，記醜而博；五曰，順非而澤。此五者有一於人，則不得免于君子之誅，而少正卯則兼有之。故居處足以聚徒成群，言談足以飾邪營眾，強足以反是獨立，此小人之桀雄也，不可不誅也。是以湯誅尹諧，文王誅潘止，周公誅管叔，太公誅華仕，管仲誅付裏乙，子產誅鄧析、史付，此七子者，皆異世同心，不可不誅也。」

Hmmm.......our sage would execute someone whom merely he didn't like (Mr. 少正卯 didn't commit any real crime -- and the way many posters behave [of course me] here probably fits into the five categories that Confucius disliked).

What do you expect his believers do with those convicts who have really committed serious crime?

[bhchao]

Ian,

Our dear sage may have supported the death sentence for those who committed a major crime.

But that does not mean he believed it to be a true deterrent in preventing major offenses. He would most likely emphasize the use of 内圣 in producing a harmonious society. On the other hand, those today who believe in the death penalty as an effective deterrent would most likely sympathize with the use of 外王 which the 法家 advocated.

There is a big difference between retaining the death penalty (which Confucius may advocate) versus believing it to be a true mobilizer in bringing out proper behavior. In other words, big difference between retaining the death penalty versus believing it as an effective deterrent in preventing serious offenses.

Compare the example between Han Wendi and Han Wudi. Wendi ruled in the Confucianist model while Wudi ruled in the Legalist model. The death penalty existed under both reigns, but who had the most executions and killed more people, including whole families?

If what you say is true, our sage would most likely concur with the death sentence passed to that Korean inmate who seriously violated a Confucian honor. From a Korean perspective, he might say "Retain the death penalty for these rare cases, but minimize the use of death sentences as much as possible."

[Ferno]

Strangely' date=' some politicians act like barbarians in a zoo.

I bet that if you combine the televised footage of all the fights that occurred in legislature, and divide it into 20 TV episodes, viewer ratings will shoot through the roof.[/quote']

heh, at least they are passionate about the politics, unlike in the US where both parties are basically identical and all they do is preserve the status quo while collecting their paychecks.