Noobie with alot of questions

[nipponman]

Hi everybody,

My very first question on this board is about the following words:

曾 Still grammatically used?(I've never seen it used properly),

繃 My dictionary says this modifies some adjectives(not sure how to use),

未 My dictionary actually gives examples as if this were still used grammatically all by itself in modern speech (e.g.,尚未恢復健康)

I also wanted to know how to use之 is it like 的?

Thanx in advance!

[skylee]

曾, 繃 and 未 are all in use. Actually they are very commonly seen.

曾 like in 曾經, 繃 like in 繃帶, 未 like in 未來.

I've never seen it used properly

This is strange. How should it be used properly?

as if this were still used grammatically all by itself in modern speech (e.g.,尚未恢復健康)

It is. The example is fine.

[nipponman]

This is strange. How should it be used properly?

Umm, I'm not sure, that is why I'm asking .

It is. The example is fine.

Really? my chinese friend says, "We don't use words like 未 or 無 to negate things, only 不" But if you say so I'll take your word for it.

[skylee]

But if you say so I'll take your word for it.

Oh don't. I am Cantonese you see. So maybe your friend is more right.

But take a look at these for reference ->

曾 -> http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/agrep-lindict?query=%B4%BF&category=wholerecord&boo=or&order=all

繃 -> http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/agrep-lindict?query=%C1%5E&category=wholerecord&boo=or&order=all

未 -> http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/agrep-lindict?query=%A5%BC&category=wholerecord&boo=or&order=all

之 -> http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/agrep-lindict?query=%A4%A7&category=wholerecord&boo=or&order=all

[roddy]

My gut instinct is that 尚未 is more written language (or at least formal spoken) and that 还没有 would be more likely. But I'm not even Cantonese, so maybe your friend is more right . . .

Roddy

[geek_frappa]

Really? my chinese friend says, "We don't use words like 未 or 無 to negate things, only 不" But if you say so I'll take your word for it.

what part of china are you friends from? how do they say 'missle' or 'robot'?

还没有

i've seen this in a formal letter. is there a limit to its usage? where is a good place and a bad place to use it?

[HashiriKata]

my chinese friend says, "We don't use words like 未 or 無 to negate things, only 不"

I think your friend is right in the sense that you use 不 (or 没) to negate anything you want, and you tend to see 未 or 無 in set phrases. I wouldn't personally use 未 or 無 to negate sentences.

[nipponman]

Thanks everyone for the replies!

[in_lab]

I heard 未 used in a phrase (a pre-recorded telephone message) that doesn't appear to be a set phrase.

你撥的電話未開機.

Does this qualify as not being a set phrase?

[HashiriKata]

I used the word "set phrase" here only in loose sense. What I meant was that, as a learner of Chinese, I don't use 未 or 無 freely to make sentences but tend to copy from what I've already seen or heard used by native speakers.

Cheers,

[marcopolo79]

未,無,莫 are all literary negation terms, not often used in contemporary spoken Mandarin to negate sentences.

曾 definitely should be used, many native English speakers use 以經 as an all purpose word for "already" but it should only be used in instances to describe an action that has taken place more quickly than anticipated or to indicate a change of state, 曾經 is the correct term to use when describing an action which has "already" taken place.

[nipponman]

Sorry for asking this but, 曾 all by itself? I have trouble with this whole monosyllabic thing, after being told countless times of the disyllabic properties of the language, I see in my dictionary using 知 by itself (這話不知是誰說的) Thanx everyone.

[marcopolo79]

As far as I know, 曾 can be used by itself, but it is always an abbreviation for 曾經. Words can be dropped when the context is clear, but I'm not sure if there are any set rules regarding this, better ask a native speaker.

[amperel]

曾 can be used by itself

i'm not sure that's true. in high school i used 現 instead of 現 在 in my 作 文 (essay) and my teacher was not very pleased with it. and i couldn't really think of an instance where you'd use 曾 by itself.

[nipponman]

Thank you guys for clearing that up.

[marcopolo79]

i'm not sure that's true. in high school i used 現 instead of 現 在 in my 作 文 (essay) and my teacher was not very pleased with it. and i couldn't really think of an instance where you'd use 曾 by itself.

I was referring to spoken Chinese, in colloquial Mandarin it is perfectly appropriate to leave off certain words when the context is clear, you can say 我曾(經)去過意大利 or 你吃飯了沒(有)? and it is still considered to be perfectly intelligible Chinese. However, deciding when this can be done is tricky and should only be done with the assured knowledge that the dropped word is still implied in the sentence. In your example, you were dropped a character in writing and the context was probably too vague for the meaning of the missing character to be understood.

[Altair]

I have trouble with this whole monosyllabic thing, after being told countless times of the disyllabic properties of the language, I see in my dictionary using 知 by itself (這話不知是誰說的)

Yip Po-Ching's and Don Rimmington's Chinese: A Comprehensive Grammar has some wonderful material on the issue of monosyllabic words versus disyllabic words. Based on what they say, I would make the following guesses about 這話不知是誰說的:

1. The expression 這話 (rather than 這句話) sounds like a holdover from Classical Chinese grammar. In such expressions, monosyllabic equivalents of dissyllabic expressions might be preferred or at least allowed. If I am right, I would guess that one would not shorten 知道 to 知, if one used the expression 這句話, as in: "這句話不知是誰說的." Can anyone confirm if this is correct?

2. The disyllabic rhythm of "不知" actually matches the disyllabic rhythm of "這話." I would again guess that one cannot say this sentence in the positive, i.e., "這話知是誰說的." Even "這話我知是誰說的" might not be acceptable, since the 我 would ordinarily not be stressed and thus would spoil the necessary rhythm.

Can anyone confirm my speculations?

[skylee]

I don't know much about Chinese grammar. And I don't have any material on the issue of monosyllabic words versus disyllabic words. But as far as I know -

這話不知是誰說的。 (O)

這句話不知是誰說的。 (O)

這句話不知道是誰說的。 (O)

這(句)話我知(道)是誰說的。 (O)

這話知是誰說的 (X)