Chinese degrees: what level of Chinese?

[Kurtz]

As I am mostly self taught, I often wonder at what stage it would be appropriate to say that my Chinese is equivalent to degree standard. It would also help me set some goals on the long path to fluency...

I therefore wondered if anyone could shed some light on how much Chinese you would be expected to know after a 3 to 4 year UK or US degree?

For example, how many characters would you be expected to know? How many words would you know? What sort of material would you be expected to read (and read easily)? How technical would your Chinese vocabulary be? How fluently would you be able to speak and what sort of topics could you be expected to discuss with ease? How good would your mastery of tones be?

Any ideas appreciated.

[Daan]

Leiden University's requirements are available online (PDF). I'd be interested to hear from others whether their universities have similar documents available online...it'd be interesting to compare them.

[renzhe]

I believe that German Sinology degrees (old Diploma) required passing the (old!) HSK 6 in the end, at least that's what I remember my friends telling me.

Online information about Sinology Master degrees requirements cite anywhere between HSK4 (Freie Universitaet Berlin) to HSK6 (Leipzig).

At least in continental Europe, there is a long tradition of concentrating on classical language and antiquity. There are generations of Sinologists who are unable to speak at all (but eat classics for breakfast). This is changing nowadays, with modern language (including conversation) becoming increasingly important. A semester in China is mandatory in many places now.

[Hugh]

For us I'd guess being able to read about 4000 - 5000 characters, read a newspaper fairly comfortably, oral Chinese be good enough to do a little bit of interpretation (but painfully). Like Renzhe said we spend quite a lot of time doing Classical. Confucian works in first year, now doing stuff like Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Also have modern literature classes, Lu Xun etc. This is all fine on the whole, although we still need a lot of preparation time and I don't think any of us feel very fluent.

[xuefang]

I'm not studying in US or UK, but perhaps someone is interested. I'm doing an undergraduate degree at Sun Yat-Sen University in Guangzhou. Before graduation we have to pass the new HSK 5 level with good points (don't know exactly how many points, close to maximum I guess) and write a bachelor thesis of about 20 pages in Chinese.

[Silent]

As I am mostly self taught, I often wonder at what stage it would be appropriate to say that my Chinese is equivalent to degree standard. It would also help me set some goals on the long path to fluency...

Why do you want to compare with a degree? I mean a degree in Chinese involves more than just language skills. If you want to measure your progress I'ld measure it against HSK or a similar test which is meant to measure language proficiency. Unless of course you intend to do the degree study and want to be exempt of the language classes.

[Kurtz]

Thanks all for the useful responses. I found the link to Leiden University's course particularly helpful.

Silent: good question. I guess that it is just useful to know what standards are used by institutions, whether it is the HSK or a Chinese degree. In addition, as university courses are structured over a few years, I think they can serve as a good guide as to what you can achieve over a certain timeframe (albeit a longer timeframe if self-studying). Also, as I mentioned above, I find this useful for setting goals and keeping motivated.

In addition, I find it difficult to find material which gives an objective estimate of what level I may be at - for example, I have recently been reading the Princeton 'Advanced' readers but consider them more at the intermediate level - and I find that a number of textbooks misuse the terms intermediate or advanced.

[jkhsu]

for example, I have recently been reading the Princeton 'Advanced' readers but consider them more at the intermediate level - and I find that a number of textbooks misuse the terms intermediate or advanced.

The usage of "intermediate" and "advanced" in US textbooks is based on what year they are used in a typical US university. Any books used in the 3rd and 4th year is considered "advanced". I took a couple of years of Chinese at a community college in the USA and they finished with these books which are considered intermediate.

Intermediate Reader of Modern Chinese

http://press.princet...itles/5120.html

Taiwan Today

http://www.cheng-tsu...day_3rd_edition

That's considered 2 years of Chinese at a typical US university. Anything after that is considered "advanced".

I've been just going to various university websites and looking at what books they use because I'm now doing self study as well. I suggest that you try that also.

Here's an older post that discusses some typical textbooks used in US universities:

http://www.chinese-f...rsity-programs/

[Gymnosopher]

I've heard that you can expect studying in China to move at upto twice the speed of classes overseas - does anyone have any experience of this? As it's stated above that attention is paid to literature and classics for certain degrees I suppose this would be a comparison of modern language usage.

[Silent]

In addition, I find it difficult to find material which gives an objective estimate of what level I may be at - for example, I have recently been reading the Princeton 'Advanced' readers but consider them more at the intermediate level - and I find that a number of textbooks misuse the terms intermediate or advanced.

I absolutely agree that it's hard to find properly graded material. Grading qualifications are used inconsistently. Best would be if they gave the number of words or characters used or where they fit in the HSK grading. In reality such info is seldom given.

Going back to a text that was previously very hard is useful to find you made progress, but it does not quantify the progress. If you want to measure progress more objectively, I guess the various HSK mock/sample tests are best as they give a fairly standardized output. The HSK levels can also be used as goals. Unless you have good reasons to do otherwise I would use HSK to measure progress and set goals as it is the de facto standard. I think 'degree level' is too vague for a benchmark.

[Gymnosopher]

With regards to degree level VS. HSK level wikipedia links to this interesting statement from the 'Association of Chinese teachers in German speaking countries' http://www.fachverband-chinesisch.de/fachverbandchinesischev/thesenpapiereundresolutionen/FaCh2010_ErklaerungHSK.pdf which in effect says they feel New HSK is easier than it purports to be.

So re- the OPs question, this document would make it seem like if a degree would take students to a certain level on the "Common European

Framework of Reference for Languages (CEFR)" this wouldn't line up with what the HSK states. Can't seem to load their webpage though...

[Silent]

I know that is claimed that the hsk does not match up to the cef levels it's supposed to match up with. I think this however is a seperate issue. Also cef levels are quite arbitrary drawn. If hsk4 does not quite match up with cef b2 it just means you have to score 70 or 80% instead of just passing the level test. it does not discount the value of hsk as a measuring tool. The only issue is that new hsk may not be suitable to measure higher level proficiency as the highest level measured is below the requiered level.

[daofeishi]

If we talk about a US college program where the person has not spent a significant amount of time immersed in a Chinese environment (say, through spending at least a year in China fully immersed in the language), these would be my personal estimates based on what I've seen among those who've taken all the upper level courses at my college. I bet several people on here will find that they have been able to get to a higher level after their college classes, but they are probably among the more talented learners.

Characters: Passive knowledge (recognition): 3000-3500 characters. Active (recall, write): approx 2000-2500. I doubt that more than a tiny minority will know more than 4000 characters.

Vocabulary: The level of an 8-10 year old, with some knowledge of more adult terminology (e.g. linguistic terminology, political vocabulary). Also with huge gaping holes when it comes to ordinary daily life vocab. (Ask a 4th year student how to say some of the more obscure stuff a 10 year old would know, like "raccoon", "dimple", "stiches", "stirrup" or "pumice", and they will probably be at a loss.)

Grammar: The typical student, i.e. one with little language learning experience beforehand, will speak moderately anglicized and non-idiomatic Chinese. Will often mix up modal words and particles, and still be confused about the more subtle usage of particles like 了. Will often not have a mastery of lexical categories and socio-lingustic nuances (formal vs. informal structures)

Tones: Those that did not do the mistake of neglecting them in their first semesters will be able to pronounce the tones fairly well, although many people will still struggle with the sandhi and make tonal errors once in a while. Few people will have a natural sounding Chinese intonation.

Listening: Functional in everyday situations (restaurants, banks, chatting with friends), will be able to watch sit-coms and understand most of the plot. Will struggle with newscasts, speeches, prose read out loud.

Reading: Few will have completed a novel. Virtually no-one will be able to read a newspaper with ease. Will be able to understand middle-school level texts without struggling too much, but will seldom find a text completely without unknown words.

Edit: For what it is worth, Clavis Sinica reports that the average passive recall score on their character test after 9+ semesters of Chinese is 2826 characters.

[Gymnosopher]

That Clavis Sinica link is pretty interesting - and goes to show that East Asia Student is indeed 认真!

Re the CEF vs. HSK levels I agree that their disparity doesn't undermine the HSK as a measuring tool, only if we're talking about the Chinese learned in a degree (which all signs point to being something quite different from just studying at a language school) that is measured with CEF then it's not quite the same. Also, on the .pdf I linked to above the issue of passing opposed to getting 70-80% in an HSK exam to match up with CEF isn't considered as all the levels are brought lower?

I actually saw a poster today with the new HSK levels up against old ones which went something like this (180 may have been 160?):

180 HSK4 = old HSK 3

195 HSK4 = old HSK 4

210 HSK4 = old HSK 5

with the same for new 5 and 6 going up through old 11. I was previously under the impression that the test had indeed become easier to get the top mark on the whole but this would suggest otherwise...

[Guest realmayo]

The word in Korea has been that the new HSK started out easier than it "should" be but will get increasingly difficult as time goes on -- to give teachers and students time to get used to the changes.

[WestTexas]

This thread is making me feel better about my Chinese. I've studied Chinese as a foreign language in the US for two years and have been living in China for two years, almost two-and-a-half years, studying in my free time while working as an English teacher. I think I could pass HSK 5 quite easily except for maybe the writing (though I could ace that if they in fact do let you use a computer), I can understand newspapers, and I can understand some of what they say in newscasts... so I guess I'm doing okay and in another year or two will be comparable to someone who did an undergrad degree.

Listening: Functional in everyday situations (restaurants, banks, chatting with friends), will be able to watch sit-coms and understand most of the plot. Will struggle with newscasts, speeches, prose read out loud.

Reading: Few will have completed a novel. Virtually no-one will be able to read a newspaper with ease. Will be able to understand middle-school level texts without struggling too much, but will seldom find a text completely without unknown words.

For me sit-coms are much more difficult to understand than newscasts, because while the newscast is faster it is also much more standard and seems to have more predictable content. Now sure, I can understand the plot on a Chinese TV show, but really I think someone with no Chinese could understand 80% of the plot on a Chinese TV show, they tend to be a little hokey and have rather cliche plotlines. You definitely don't need to get every word to understand it.

Also, IMO novels are more difficult than newspapers, though I haven't seriously sat down to read a novel. I've picked up a few novels in the bookstore and couldn't make head or tails of the first page so I figured they were too high level for me. It's been awhile though, maybe it would be easier now.

[Gymnosopher]

The word in Korea has been that the new HSK started out easier than it "should" be but will get increasingly difficult as time goes on -- to give teachers and students time to get used to the changes.

Hmm, maybe that explains why some of my classmates are in a rush to take the high level HSK which seems punching far above our current level!

[Confused Laowai]

I studied Chinese in South Africa for three years. Only went to China for three weeks during that time.

I would say my level was bordering HSK 4. It's a tough thing to say as I'm sure each course differs. If you're studying outside of China, other skills improve due to a difference in input. My reading is much better than my speaking and listening. Same goes for recognizing characters.