Should china lift the ban on gambling industry?

[39degN]

some study suggest china should open up its gambling industry, according to source such as the link below, china lost some RMB 600 billion every year in gambling by tourists or the corrupt officials outside its borders. is gambling legalization a good choice for china? whats your opinion?

is dmbling legalization the solution?

[wushijiao]

Wouldn't most of this money end up in Macao, which is part of China?

I have mixed feelings about this. I think a person has the right to spend his or her money in anyway s/he wants. But, from a practical point of view, I think legalizing gambling would be a disaster. Here are a few reasons:

1) Unlike a few years ago, the economy is in danger of overheating.

2) People will continue to need high savings rates.

3) A nationwide unbanning of gambling sounds to me like it is a bit unfocused to do much to help the people in need. It might just influence the power of the mob.

4) If officials are gambling using the coffers of their small village in Gansu or someplace, that needs to be delt with by the Party on cracking down on corruption basis, and is a seperate issue from gambling.

Well, those reasons are a bit shaky. But I dout the CCP would ever legalize gambling anyway, because it would undermine part of their legacy, which was banning prostitution, drugs (opium), and gambling, among other vices. So, I am sure some Party people might argue that gambling would weaken "social stability".

[Jack MacKelly]

It would seem to be a fine idea, you can't really stop a person from going to gamble if they want to

In Europe and the West, folks bet on horses, they gamble on soccer matches, there are Vegas style casinos in the west and various national lottery. Making all this legal could be a good thing to do

[skylee]

How about adopting the Hong Kong mode, where legal gambling (horse races, soccer games, Mark Six) is operated by the HK Jockey Club and regulated? What the Club earns (except reserve for its operations and development) is mostly spent on charitable / welfare purposes according to the relevant laws. In this way the money people spent on gambling will be retained in China and go back to those in need.

[39degN]

Wouldn't most of this money end up in Macao, which is part of China?

not really, some reports say there are increasing number of casinos were built up in the neighboring countries of china, such as Burma, Laos, Cambodia, Russia, even Mongolia and North Korea, the target costomers are apparently chinese, becuase most of them banned own fellow people to enter. the most controversial one now days on the internet, however, is the Yinghuang英皇 in DPRK, which joint ventured by Hongkong entertainment tycoon 杨受成.

1) Unlike a few years ago, the economy is in danger of overheating.

2) People will continue to need high savings rates.

3) A nationwide unbanning of gambling sounds to me like it is a bit unfocused to do much to help the people in need. It might just influence the power of the mob.

4) If officials are gambling using the coffers of their small village in Gansu or someplace, that needs to be delt with by the Party on cracking down on corruption basis, and is a seperate issue from gambling.

i dont think the 1) and 2) directly related to this issue. as for the 3) i totally agree with Skylee, it can be operated as state owned, and make the income a fund of social welfare. to some extent, china sport lottary and china welfare lottary are good try. as for the social stability or blah, blah... as Jack MacKelly said

you can't really stop a person from going to gamble if they want to

either through de facto underground casinos or to cross the borders, then why dont we make it serves the society. its time to face the music.

How about adopting the Hong Kong mode, where legal gambling (horse races, soccer games, Mark Six) is operated by the HK Jockey Club and regulated? What the Club earns (except reserve for its operations and development) is mostly spent on charitable / welfare purposes according to the relevant laws. In this way the money people spent on gambling will be retained in China and go back to those in need.

yeah, Sky, couldnt agree any more, i believe through healthy operating, it can be a good thing for the society.

[gato]

Legalizing gambling is a bad idea. Lots of people who gamble are people who can't afford to. It's like a extra tax on the poor and superstitious.

By limiting it to Macao and Hong Kong, you at least prevent those who aren't rich enough to travel to those place from gambling. Once you allow casinos within China, you'll end up with lots of those lonely and desperate migrant workers handing over their hard-earned yuans to the casino bosses. Please don't. Study the problems gambling has caused among the Chinese in America before proceeding. Do an income study of gamblers.

[wushijiao]

not really, some reports say there are increasing number of casinos were built up in the neighboring countries of china, such as Burma, Laos, Cambodia, Russia, even Mongolia and North Korea, the target costomers are apparently chinese, becuase most of them banned own fellow people to enter. the most controversial one now days on the internet, however, is the Yinghuang英皇 in DPRK, which joint ventured by Hongkong entertainment tycoon 杨受成.

This reminds me, I went to a casino in Slovenia, and I would estimate that about half of the customers were Chinese!

I suppose you're right that lottos and state-run casinos are a great way to raise revenue for the government, as skylee pointed out. In my state in the US, the lotto pays for both the prision system and the parks.

I agree with gato though. "The lotto: a tax on people who can't do math" is still true. Casinos and lottos are just regressive taxes. Also, the casinos you mentioned all had something in common- they were meant to be used by travelers. Would a casino have a net positive effect on the economy if most of the users were locals? I don't think so (feel free to prove me wrong).

[39degN]

gato wrote:

By limiting it to Macao and Hong Kong, you at least prevent those who aren't rich enough to travel to those place from gambling. Once you allow casinos within China, you'll end up with lots of those lonely and desperate migrant workers handing over their hard-earned yuans to the casino bosses. Please don't. Study the problems gambling has caused among the Chinese in America before proceeding. Do an income study of gamblers.

wushijiao wrote:

I agree with gato though. "The lotto: a tax on people who can't do math" is still true. Casinos and lottos are just regressive taxes. Also, the casinos you mentioned all had something in common- they were meant to be used by travelers. Would a casino have a net positive effect on the economy if most of the users were locals? I don't think so (feel free to prove me wrong).

yeah, i'm troubling with this too, it could be. anyway we are just trying to probe the possiblity.consider this factor,at leat we can have a try at first, for example, run some casinos in scenic spots targeting foreign tourists(no entering for local people), take "socialism characteristic gambling"(haha, kidding) as a selling point, then even though we cant prevent cross border gambling, at least we can make a relatively balance. think about china's GDP composition:

agriculture: 14.8%

industry and construction: 52.9%

services: 32.3%

(2004 est. according to CIA worldfactbook)

services sector just takes 32.3%, china obviously needs to improve its sevice industry now.

[badboy]

Legalizing gambling is a bad idea. Lots of people who gamble are people who can't afford to. It's like a extra tax on the poor and superstitious.

Lots of people who smoke and drink can't really afford that either.

Nobody's forcing them to gamble. And from another perspective, if they are poor the lottery may be their only way out of poverty if they don't have the skills to get a regular decent paying job. So they must regulate themselves, and the amount they play for.

As for being a tax on the superstitious, again nobody has forced them to be superstitious.

It also depends on what kind of lottery would be legalized. A lottery where someone can become a millionaire at least gives people a chance for a better life.

A lottery run like ProLine in Canada is a complete joke however. They try to pass it off as a game of skill, as you have to pick winning sports teams, and you are not going to become a millionaire by playing it.

The odds offered by this lottery are horrendous. E.g. To simplify it...if you pick 4 teams against the spread, all have to win for you to collect. ProLine would offer 8-1 odds on this. But the true odds against this are 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 1/16 or 15 to 1.

In other words if you bet $1 each time, for every 16 plays you will bet $16 and collect $9 ($8 + $1). Which is only a 44% house advantage (lose $7/$16). Contrast to a game like roulette in a casino, which has a 5% house advantage. The best sports handicapper in the world cannot overcome a 44% house take.

[39degN]

Lots of people who smoke and drink can't really afford that either.

Nobody's forcing them to gamble. And from another perspective, if they are poor the lottery may be their only way out of poverty if they don't have the skills to get a regular decent paying job. So they must regulate themselves, and the amount they play for.

As for being a tax on the superstitious, again nobody has forced them to be superstitious.

hehe, if you post this in chinese speaking forums, i m pretty sure you will face storms. personally i agree with you though. lol

[Green Pea]

In other words if you bet $1 each time, for every 16 plays you will bet $16 and collect $9 ($8 + $1). Which is only a 44% house advantage (lose $7/$16). Contrast to a game like roulette in a casino, which has a 5% house advantage. The best sports handicapper in the world cannot overcome a 44% house take.

LOL! Governments are the best bookies in the business. They'll then tax you on the remainder of your profit above their take.

[Ian_Lee]

The greatest obstacle to legalize gambling in Mainland China is actually psychological.

Though rarely remembered or recited, Beijing boasted its legitimacy in eradicating all the vices -- prostitution, gambling, drugs, triad,....etc -- from the Chinese society.

If gambling is legalized, many people will doubt what is the difference between current society and pre-'49 society?

So gambling can be tolerated or being turned a blind eye but never legalized in Mainland.

But I would say gambling is now crazy in Mainland. Even "Mark Six" (Bi-weekly lottery in HK) newspaper have several different publications and widely circulated in the Pearl River Delta area.

[39degN]

yeah, basiclly thats the reason why the gov doesnt allow this. however, i really dont see that as something to be proud of. people don't do it that is not because of they willing to, but simply becoz of being forced, that's not the real situation, meanwhile it cuases its de facto UNDERGROUND boom. i really wish this issue wont ends up as other "face problem" did. 存在即合理(whatever is, is right, i m not sure if this translation is ringht, anybody help me? ), isnt it?

[gato]

Nobody's forcing them to gamble....So they must regulate themselves, and the amount they play for.

As for being a tax on the superstitious, again nobody has forced them to be superstitious.

That's an argument for legalizing narcotics, too. Do you support legalizing crack and heroin?

Ian,

You say that gambling is already rampant in the Mainland. What form of gambling are you talking about? Is it just in Guangdong where people participate in HK lotteries?

[Ian_Lee]

Gato:

Mark-6 lottery is quite popular in Taiwan and Guangdong.

It is actually a bi-weekly lottery held by the Hong Kong Jockey Club (the only authorized gaming authority in the territory).

Due to the frequency of traffic, the people in Taiwan and Guangdong first hired agents to buy the lottery in HK for them.

But soon afterwards, those Triad-related syndicaters became bookies themselves in Taiwan and Guangdong. (Most of them don't transfer their bets to the HK Jockey Club.)

After it evolved over the years, you don't even only bet on the numbers, the bookies develop many new forms of betting. For example, you can bet on whether the six numbers drawn are odd or even numbers.

Actually such form of betting was quite prevalent in pre-'49 which was called 字花 back then. (字花 had been popular in HK until '60s and that was why HK government regulated it.)

But the winning of lottery is by sheer chance. But most Chinese gamblers believe there are clues to win. So that is why so many books on Mark-6 are circulated in Guangdong.

[skylee]

It is actually a bi-weekly lottery held by the Hong Kong Jockey Club (the only authorized gaming authority in the territory).

Mark-Six lotteries are drawn three times a week now.

[badboy]

That's an argument for legalizing narcotics, too. Do you support legalizing crack and heroin?

I'm not arguing for the legalization of crack and heroin, we're talking about gambling here.

Your logic makes no sense at all.

[woodcutter]

I have never met people so eager to start a business as the present day mainland Chinese. Maybe that's because that's the only way to get rich. Their counterparts in the UK probably just bet on the horses. Business is a more positive form of gambling than the real deal, and in my opinion most money earned from gambling is money that would be otherwise invested in more positive things.

OK, you can't prevent it, but if you sanction it, it will rocket.

[39degN]

lol, nobody willing and eager to start this business though.

yeah, maybe, but actually china just needs a comprehensive and balanced development...

[skylee]

Take a look ->

China to Crack Down on Gambling

中国开展专项行动打击赌博犯罪 重点打击5类人