Avoiding questions about income

[GuernseyMatt]

Dear Owen,

You've certainly got some fire in your belly, but sad to say you've taken your eye off the ball with your last post, we are not discussing wage equality (it must be the tequila!).

Maybe I was wrong to say you have an inferiority complex - it would appear to be more of a guilt complex.

May I also say that you have also exposed a degree of selective ignorance. Why is it so easy to shrug off and ignore Thai culture yet get on your high horse about your philipino friends?

I mentioned the "feet on the beach scenario" as an example of cultural awareness and appropriate modification of behaviour because SOMBODY accused me of not being suited to dealing with other cultures. I can assure you that if you find yourself in that position in Thailand it is well worth observing - the locals don't regard it as a silly drinking game!

I agree that sometines "it can't hurt to ask", I yet again reiterate that I would not consider biting your head off if you did ask, but that does not equate to your automatic entitlment to an answer.

Why is it so personal you ask?

well maybe I can put it in to the context of other personal questions - for instance - questions of a sexual nature.

Some people talk freely of their exploits and habits in the middle of a crowded pub, where others will maintain their dignity and change the subject.

Mines a Gin & Tonic...Cheers

[HashiriKata]

Why is it unjust that Filipinos get lower wages? Start engaging those grey cells!! [/b']The UK is a prosperous country and the Philippines is a poor country owing to cultural factors and to the quality of leadership in those countries. Why didn't the Philippines conquer one-quarter of the world? Why is not Tagalog the main language of international communication?

Interesting! Did you engage any of "those grey cells" of yours before making such a statement?

[djwebb2004]

HashiriKata, can you challenge what I said? I thought NOT!

[HashiriKata]

I wouldn't and I needn't. I just wanted to help you to help yourself. Here's another piece you wrote:

We in the UK deserve our position in the world - and so do the Filipinos! Have you checked out the average IQ level in the Philippines recently?

Are you going to say next that the Iraqis deserve what they've got from the recent British treatment?

Do engage "those grey cells" of yours and make us British less ashamed!

One of your country's fellow men,

HK

[owen]

Holy hell Djwebb. Why did we stop the slave trade. It was their(slaves) fault for being so susceptible to the awesome 'power' of the slave traders. They should have pulled themselves up by the bootstraps and came over to america and/or europe and enslaved whitey back. But alas, the IQ level in all of Africa was too low, so they got what they deserved. n'est-ce pas?

IQ is a pretty ridiculous way to evaluate a person's worth let alone using it as an excuse to justify a population being virtually or literally enslaved. But continuing with it anyways......

Either you are saying that filipino/a's have a genetic IQ deficiency? If so then i dont really know what to say. Or are you saying that they have a situational IQ deficiency? If so then i think that you understand my point. Change the situation and perhaps the IQ will follow.

Start engaging those grey cells!!

You mean the ones that i have in abundance being western and all, right?

This is just the dumbest way to argue ever and really brings me down that this forum, which i enjoy quite a bit, could be dragged down to such a level.... Truly a playground throw-back - and i'm not referring to the fun parts. "hes a dum dum and his brain is probably smaller than a peanut HAHAHAHAHA" laughs some snot nosed little twit desperately trying to convince himself of his superiority, but by degrading those around him instead of lifting himself above. thats why i hate kids - they're really childish. Your insult is of course the grown up wording, but just as annoying and insignificant. Why didn't you add some insult about my penis size and finish the portrait?

By the by, I only mentioned the filipina example as one instance of what i see as a much bigger problem (also mentioned it cuz i have some first hand experience). I couldn't care less about culture, be it thai, phillipino, or pygmy. If it doesn't suit me at any given time i say farewell. I'm happy to be guilty of straying from such a lame and useless topic. But if you wanna compare notes then i wil remind you to be sure to wrap your nose in tin foil (shiny side out) if you go over to a Sawanahaseean virgin's house after midnight.

I'm aware that we have gotten off topic.... um, ya.

[djwebb2004]

In reply to HashirKata: you say you won't defend your point of view. Well I say you lack the raw IQ to do so.

Iraq is yet another country in the Third World that has not achieved its potential despite massive oil wealth. Who is to blame for that? We can see today what a hash the Iraqis are making of their one chance for democracy, so there must be cultural factors that explain their backwardness. The violence for example. The tribalism for example. If Iraq had made more of itself, we wouldn't be in there today. I don't support the way by the way, but it is a TRUISM that Iraqis only have themselves to blame for their backwardness. Culture makes people who they are. GET REAL!

[Green Pea]

I agree with djwebb2004 that those wages are not unjust. You get paid for what you will work for, not for the value you add, or what you are worth. Secondly, what do you do with your income? Do you build your own wealth through saving and investing, or do you spend it all? That is the worker's personal decision. People can, and do get wealthy on small wages. Too many people believe that income is equivalent to wealth. It is not.

[djwebb2004]

In reply to a rather stupid post by Owen: you ask whether it was the slaves' fault for being susceptible to the power of the slave traders. Well, you may know no history, but slave trading was the West African culture. It was not invented by the West. They were highly backward societies with no writings systems, no maths, no science, no anything, with very backward social systems including slavery. So the fact that countries like England were able to participate in the slave trade was based 1) on their culture; and 2) on their failure to develop as societies, which is not

our fault!

It is a fact that the average IQ in Africa is 70. Have you wondered why China, with average IQ of 100, equal to Western nations, is developing, while resource rich countries in Africa aren't? Have you managed to live in China without ever discussing this with Chinese people? Chinese people do not admire low achieving nations such as Africa.

No, I don't know why most Third World nations have low IQ. Whether genetic or cultural, it manifests itself anyway. See the recent book by Vanhanen, IQ and the Wealth of Nations. If it is cultural, cultures are hard to change, and people are the product of their cultures. In some countries, women stand by while their girls are savagely genitally mutilated without anaesthetic, singing and dancing while their little girls are screaming!! We are NOT the same all the world over. Different cultures make us different.

I don't know what origin you are. But you seem to imply in your message that you have a small penis. But, if so, get over it! I presume it's all in working order all the same!

It is IRREFUTABLY the case that poorer nations are poorer owing to their cultures and their political and economic choices. Countries that just sit there with the begging bowl out never achieve anything. Countries that realise it is up to them to change, prosper. See for example Malaysia, where Dr Mahathir used to constantly berate the Malays for their laziness. He grasped the nettle of cultural chance, and a prosperous Malaysia is the result. Take

China - China is helping itself, not bleating on about injustice. I despair when ostensibly intelligent people can post the bullshit you did on this forum. Read some books. Educate yourself etc. Political correctness does not teach you anything.

You may not care about culture, but corrupt cultures are holding the majority of the world back. The trouble is when anyone gets elected to change it, they carry on in the same way with the same cronyism, because that is acceptable in the culture. They only have themselves to blame. Owen, GROW UP!!

[GuernseyMatt]

Some very pertinent points in your last post Webby.

I was under the impression that the average IQ in England was actually 80, my source of info being the "test the nation" programme that airs annually.

Would you agree that a certain pool of corrupt countries only managed to maintain their existence because they were seen as convenient, and were propped up by external interfering countries like Britain and America. (Iraq being the obvious example).

[geraldc]

With low paid foreign migrant workers, you can explain the low pay, by stating in that country, at that time, they are the only people willing to do that particular job for that level of pay, therefore they willingly do the job. You can not say they are a stupid people from a corrupt country and the rubbish jobs and rubbish pay is all they deserve...

[GuernseyMatt]

Nobody ever gets what they deserve, they only get what they are able to negotiate.

[djwebb2004]

Guernsey matt, it seems quite true that foreign intervention often props up corrupt regimes, but I am talking at a more fundamental cultural level. Do you remember when Chiluba, a trade unionist, took over from Kaunda in Zambia. The Western newspapers had high expectations - but he was just as corrupt and cronyist in the end. Why? Because it is expected and you can get away with it in that country. It is the deeper cultural level that I am addressing. It doesn't help of course that the European Union and others have closed agricultural markets, and that most "foreign aid" is tied to the implemetnation of policies that suit the Western countries. But we are able to do this to developing countries, because we developed first...

[GuernseyMatt]

Dear webby,

You illustrate an excellent awareness of historical affairs.

I must confess that I am not familiar with the case that you have used as an example although I do understand the point you are making.

In certain cases, on a sociological level, your line of reasoning appears to stand up; but it is dangerous on an individual level.

Its all very well to discuss the average performance of a community, but that does not take in to account the contributions of exceptional individuals that may contribute a massive difference and set the society on a course of improvement.

For (far from perfect) example, South Africa was dramatically affected by Nelson Mandella. His eventual inaugeration as president was greeted by the western newspapers with much hope, and despite difficulties the process he championed continues and hope still exists.

All countries were/are developing countries at some point in history, and all have their moments of shame and weakness. Could the unfortunate example that you gave concerning Zambia be considered a growing pain?

What hope is there for an improved situation in poorer countries if we accept your reasoning as entirely correct?

[djwebb2004]

Well there is hope for poorer countries, but it depends on good leaders. Mahathir in Malaysia nd Deng Xiaoping in China are cases in point.

[sunyata]

djwebb,

your reasoning is solid, but it reveals your personal values and belief system, which are a bit scary. You seem to imply that progress is the only merit of a nation or a culture. And your whole line of reasoning seems to be infused with this "survival of the fittest" attitude. I am not trying to criticize you for this, but I hope one day you will realize the futility and harm of such thinking.

[djwebb2004]

Sunyata. 1) My reasoning is shared by most Chinese. Ask them what they think of unachieving nations!!! PC does NOT exist in China!!! How come you are studying to Chinese, but manage to isolate yourself in a bubble from Chinese culture and Chinese opinions? Or maybe you just arrogantly assume your UCLA lefty bullshit is superior!! 2) I did not say progress is the only value. Maybe the cultures of the developing world are valuable in other senses. But if that is the case there is no point in moaning about the fact that their wages are lower than ours - such a consideration reflects the Western viewpoint that materialism and material progress is the only value, which you claims to disagree with. You can't have it BOTH ways. Grey cells???

[GuernseyMatt]

I agree that you can't have it both ways, although the world has been described as a multi faceted gem, and life as a very rich tapestry.

I dont think that your personal view on the cultural short comings of some countries is applicable across the board and it is not a sound basis to summarise a very complex socio economic scenario.

You have not taken into account:

War

External interference

Discriminatory trade tarifs

Geography

I too do not like political correctness and I do not dismiss cultural significance, but with all due respect, if this is your only focus you are in danger of attracting the (inappropriate) use of the "R" word.

[djwebb2004]

So you admit use of the "R" word would be inappropriate, but there are many who don't mind sinking to the cheap shot anyway!! By the way, most, or even nearly all Chinese are "R". So what's wrong with uttering viewpoints oin this forum that you will confront if you ever have a more than superficiail conversation with a Chinese!! it is as if people on this list believe they float down like virtual gods in China to give the Chinese the truth. Have you ever spoken to those Western English teachers who hold constant "lessons" on homosexaulity , with the sole point of "telling" the Chinese pupils what to think on the subject!! It is as if even the non-religious Westerners in China believe they are conducting missionary work!!! And despite their cultural arrogance vis a vis the Chinese, all these people think they are non-"R"!!! Words just lose all meaning!!

[sunyata]

Sunyata. 1) My reasoning is shared by most Chinese. Ask them what they think of unachieving nations!!! PC does NOT exist in China!!! How come you are studying to Chinese, but manage to isolate yourself in a bubble from Chinese culture and Chinese opinions? Or maybe you just arrogantly assume your UCLA lefty bullshit is superior!! 2) I did not say progress is the only value. Maybe the cultures of the developing world are valuable in other senses. But if that is the case there is no point in moaning about the fact that their wages are lower than ours - such a consideration reflects the Western viewpoint that materialism and material progress is the only value, which you claims to disagree with. You can't have it BOTH ways. Grey cells???

Hmm, I don't think this should be directed at me, because I only summarized your outlook on things and described it as harmful. I didn't say anything about Chinese opinions, low wages, or lefty UCLA bullshit. It's ok if you want to relieve your anger and frustration by responding in this manner. You can make it as personal as you want; the main issue here is not socio-political theory, but rather the cause of your irritation.

[djwebb2004]

Sunyata, I'm not irritated, I'm just trying to help you But sometimes I feel as I'm