sunyata Posted January 26, 2005 at 12:15 AM Report Posted January 26, 2005 at 12:15 AM lolz, I wish you could help me...thanks for the kind offer though
owen Posted January 26, 2005 at 12:42 AM Report Posted January 26, 2005 at 12:42 AM ya, i think djwebb is super offensive too. saying nothing of his views. Have you ever spoken to those Western English teachers who hold constant "lessons" on homosexaulity , with the sole point of "telling" the Chinese pupils what to think on the subject!! It is as if even the non-religious Westerners in China believe they are conducting missionary work!!! And you coming to the forum and insulting anything that differs from your rather extreme views as leftist PC unthinking bullshit is different how? Its pretty easy to tell you are really in love with yourself, your culture, and most importantly, your IQ Now let us all take a moment to pray to the god of IQ that he may bestow on us some generous number to make us better people and worthy of more of the worlds resources than others. When you respond to this post with whatever 'history' nonsense you have could you please not call me stupid or any other insulting names. I find it really makes for a bad forum experience. Thanks.
djwebb2004 Posted January 26, 2005 at 12:48 AM Report Posted January 26, 2005 at 12:48 AM A bad forum experience! And people are starving around the world. Now they have got REAL problems!
owen Posted January 26, 2005 at 05:11 AM Report Posted January 26, 2005 at 05:11 AM djwebb, since you prefer picking and choosing question to answer that allow you to display your supposedly fine endowment of grey matter (the only guy i ever knew who used that term in a social setting was seriously clinically screwed up - i'm really not joking), i'll make it easy and just give you one question to answer: You mentioned that to use the "R" word is 'sinking to a cheap shot'. So what about using the "S" (stupid) word, or insulting someones grey matter (again using that term just makes me feel that i am operating at half my maturity)? How far do you have to sink to pull this thread down as far as you have? Please tell us where you're at (not where you think you are at, as we know that that would be impossibly high above all of us leftist PC wankers - the "LPCW" word)?
djwebb2004 Posted January 26, 2005 at 07:16 AM Report Posted January 26, 2005 at 07:16 AM Owen, you clearly have no arguments about the substance of the issues discussed in this thread!! Have a nice day - and get a LIFE!
GuernseyMatt Posted January 26, 2005 at 03:51 PM Report Posted January 26, 2005 at 03:51 PM I can see faults on both sides, you both seem to take a degree of delight in provoking anyone who cares to put finger to keyboard. That in itself is not a bad thing if it promotes an intelligent debate, but in all honesty the tone of this string is rapidly degrading into a festival of insult. It is perfectly feasible to disagree without resorting to derogatory comments, or if labels are to be bandied about they should at least be qualified with reasoning. I will also add that despite some posts referring to superior IQ's, I have yet to read any evidence to support the claim.
owen Posted January 27, 2005 at 10:42 AM Report Posted January 27, 2005 at 10:42 AM It is perfectly feasible to disagree without resorting to derogatory comments, or if labels are to be bandied about they should at least be qualified with reasoning My point exactly. All that i've been trying to do for the last few posts was perhaps get the dj to reflect on the value (worthlessness) of insulting people's intelligence in the course of a debate (the thing i originally took offence to). Of course he was not able to answer the last question i put to him because there is only one answer and it doesn;t help with all the slimy posturing he's been doing on this thread. I've tried fighting fire with fire and i've tried simple requests for him to stop insulting me personally with every reply but he just can't seem to resist the temptation to mud sling. Truth be known dj, I am intrigued by your views and i don't place my own views on the substance of this thread anywhere near incontestible but i just can't put up with the arrogant bull%$*t i would have to wade through to understand and incorporate your views into my own. get a LIFE???!!! Were you raised by sit-com writers? Do you say really that in earnest? Who says things like that anymore?
Jose Posted January 28, 2005 at 12:24 AM Report Posted January 28, 2005 at 12:24 AM I am appalled by what I have read in this thread. djwebb, how can you say things like: It is a fact that the average IQ in Africa is 70.(...) It is IRREFUTABLY the case that poorer nations are poorer owing to their cultures and their political and economic choices. ???A fact? Irrefutable? Surely you must know that the mere possibility of assessing the whole gamut of human talents and capacities in terms of a figure is highly controversial. And are you sure the results of an IQ test don't depend on your level of education? I think if you have studied science, languages and whatever for a long time, your mind will be better trained to deal with logical analysis. I don't know much about IQ tests, but I can't see how they can be independent of education. Another factor to consider is language. Do you realise that IQ tests in Africa are likely to be carried out in English or French, which are not the native languages of most people there? In England everyone takes those tests in English, don't they? A bit unfair. How about first-generation Hispanics in the US? Do they take the tests in Spanish? And then, if IQ results explain the differences in wealth between different nations, how come empires come and go? How do you explain the fact that at different moments in history very different parts of the world have been at the forefront of economic and cultural development? Take China. It has been at the pinnacle of world civilisation at various historic times, and its economy is growing at an amazing rate these days. But thirty years ago you would have thought it was a failed nation, poorer than many African countries. How does IQ explain that? My impression is that a higher GNP implies a better level of education, which then implies higher IQ test results. And not the other way around, as you seem to believe. What I find disgusting about all this is the way in which people use this spurious science to feel reassured about their own racist prejudices. Even if there was an iota of truth in the meaningfulness of these IQ differences (which I don't believe), don't you see how harmful for human relations such 'science' is? Once you're convinced that Filipinos are intellectually inferior to you, will you respect a Filipino colleague at work, just as you would someone from one of your 'achieving' nations? Would you marry an African woman knowing that your children would have an IQ of, er, 85 or whatever? And do you expect people from countries that are classified as low-IQ in Vanhanen's list to shrug their shoulders and accept such findings? I'm sure that if there was a 'study' showing that Brits have a lower IQ than continental Europeans you would protest that it CAN'T be right. In the end, people believe what they want to believe. One last thing. According to Lynn and Vanhanen's book the country with the lowest average IQ on the planet is, of all places, Equatorial Guinea. How would you then explain this -> http://www.economist.com/markets/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3599802 Looks like the dimwits of the world are doing rather well.
djwebb2004 Posted January 28, 2005 at 01:48 AM Report Posted January 28, 2005 at 01:48 AM Jose, I think I am entitled to query your IQ after reading that contribution. For a start Equatorial Guinea has oil wealth. A spurt in international oil prices owing to Iraq war etc produces a large rise in the country's GDP, but the people of the country see none of it owing to corruption etc. It is the case that the average IQ in Equatorial Guinea is 59!! None of the factors you raised is true. IQ tests have been culture neutral since the 1950s and it is not the case that in Africa they are conducted in languages the people cannot speak! How ridiculous! If you had read Lynn and Vanhanen's book you would know that tests on classmates at South Africa's Witwatersrand University - black and white pupils speaking the same language and studying together - showed a 15 point discrepancy in IQ levels. The fact is in the states some minorities consistently failed to get into university on exam scores - I am talking about African Americans in the USA for hundreds of years and speaking English. Their Vietnamese etc classmates who started out speaking little English and at a great disadvantage outperform them greatly and have no problem in university admittance! That shoots your little "lilun" down in flames. So if exam scores don't work, SAT scores were tried. Same result. IQ tests. Same result. Now African Americans who apply get an additional set of points as a head start to try to help them get in. So your pathetic ideas have no correlation to reality. Crawl back under your stone, Jose.
wushijiao Posted January 28, 2005 at 02:03 AM Report Posted January 28, 2005 at 02:03 AM IQ tests have been culture neutral since the 1950s and it is not the case that in Africa they are conducted in languages the people cannot speak! Are you sure? Go read "The Geography of Thought". This book explains how even IQ tests thought to be neutral because of the elimination of language can be biased based on how different cultures interpret space and shapes. But then again, my IQ was tested at 58.
djwebb2004 Posted January 28, 2005 at 02:10 AM Report Posted January 28, 2005 at 02:10 AM Are you sure? Go read "The Geography of Thought". This book explains how even IQ tests thought to be neutral because of the elimination of language can be biased based on how different cultures interpret space and shapes. But then again, my IQ was tested at 58. This is nonsense - it may make sense to someone with a sub Equatorial Guinean IQ level - if someone says "rotate this shape 180 degrees, which of the shapes would it correspond to?" they are not asking for a disquisition on the cultural philosophy of shapes, but asking them to work out a practical problem. People who can't answer such questions are the known as low-IQ people
sunyata Posted January 28, 2005 at 02:22 AM Report Posted January 28, 2005 at 02:22 AM I think the point that Mr. djwebb has been trying to make here with his numerous posts is rather simple: he has a high IQ score! Now that we have realized this, let's congratulate him and wish him a steady increase in his IQ scores on future tests.
Jose Posted January 28, 2005 at 08:07 AM Report Posted January 28, 2005 at 08:07 AM Jose, I think I am entitled to query your IQ after reading that contribution.And after reading your post, I think I am entitled to query your ability to engage in civilised debate.For a start Equatorial Guinea has oil wealth. But in another post you said: Have you wondered why China, with average IQ of 100, equal to Western nations, is developing, while resource rich countries in Africa aren't?The GDP growth forecasts for 2005 show that African countries are taking advantage of their resources to grow. Maybe they're not as stupid as you think.And back to language again, don't you think the peculiar linguistic situation of EG might go a long way in explaining why IQ tests there yield lower results than in neighbouring countries?
Jose Posted January 28, 2005 at 08:09 AM Report Posted January 28, 2005 at 08:09 AM Sunyata, I agree with you. We should just congratulate him, and go on with our lives. Keep up the good humour, man!
HashiriKata Posted January 28, 2005 at 09:43 AM Report Posted January 28, 2005 at 09:43 AM Dear djwebb, I just wanted to help you to help yourself. I wish you took my advice early on, and I'm sure my colleagues at Leeds who'd had to spend time on such a lost cause must be doubly disappointed. Sincerely , HK PS: Should the heading of this thread be more appropriately named as "Avoid questions about IQ" ?
Green Pea Posted January 28, 2005 at 02:38 PM Report Posted January 28, 2005 at 02:38 PM I think what djwebb is trying to convey is shown in this chart. From: http://sq.4mg.com/NationSuccess.htm There is a correlation. A correlation does not mean a 100% predication for any country, economy, or individual within it.
Jose Posted January 28, 2005 at 03:09 PM Report Posted January 28, 2005 at 03:09 PM A correlation just means that two quantities are related. It doesn't say which one of the quantities causes the other one. The problem is that you interpret that chart as meaning that the higher the average IQ, the higher the GDP per head. My interpretation is that the higher the GDP per head, the better the education and, hence, the better the results obtained by people in IQ tests. In fact if you chart IQ scores v. literacy levels you will find a much better correlation. You can choose to believe that the IQ score is the cause rather than the effect, but you're just revealing your prejudices if you do so.
geraldc Posted January 28, 2005 at 03:16 PM Report Posted January 28, 2005 at 03:16 PM So the best way to avoid questions about income, is to start a fight with another westerner...cunnning
Green Pea Posted January 28, 2005 at 06:11 PM Report Posted January 28, 2005 at 06:11 PM A correlation just means that two quantities are related. It doesn't say which one of the quantities causes the other one.The problem is that you interpret that chart as meaning that the higher the average IQ' date=' the higher the GDP per head. My interpretation is that the higher the GDP per head, the better the education and, hence, the better the results obtained by people in IQ tests.[/quote'] You can choose to believe that the IQ score is the cause rather than the effect, but you're just revealing your prejudices if you do so. I don't interpret the chart that way, but djwebb might. He can answer for himself. The correlation doesn't prove the cause nor disprove it. We simply do not have enough data. I do think it is possible the cause for higher GDP is IQ. The problem is that too many people will not accept that as a possibility. It's too offensive, insulting, or socially unacceptable to even consider. We are too afraid of the answer if it were true. Our sensibilities couldn't handle it. Our prejudices might prevent us even to consider the hypothesis let alone proving it. The firestorm of protest against "The Bell Curve" is indicative of this prejudice against politically unacceptable research.
djwebb2004 Posted January 28, 2005 at 07:07 PM Report Posted January 28, 2005 at 07:07 PM Jose, or Tonto? Equatorial Guinea is not "developing". The oil money is going in the pockets of the corrupt rulers and there is no investment in infrastructure, health, education or anything else for the people. Thee country has NOTHING to show for its oil wealth. The specific linguistic situation in EG? The fact that many people there speak Fang as well as Spanish should help their IQ, not lower it! There is no evidence at all that low African IQs are produced by testing people in a lingo they don't speak.
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