Avoiding questions about income

[djwebb2004]

Jose, you say that IQs are lifted by GDP growth. What you don't explain, which refutes your point of view, is why Chinese IQs are much higher than those of other developing countries at a similar level of development. THINK before you answer! Are you possibly of Equatorial Guinean origina yourself?

[Jose]

Jose, or Tonto?

Here we go again. How come somebody with such a high intellect has to resort to insults to express disagreement with a different opinion?

why Chinese IQs are much higher than those of other developing countries at a similar level of development

Well, I don't know. My view is that IQ tests rely on some basic numeracy and literacy abilities that are acquired through education to a certain extent. I can't believe that an illiterate peasant who has never gone to school will be able to handle sequences of geometric shapes, or simple calculations like the "if A is twice as much as B, and C is less than..." sort of questions. The abstract thinking needed to answer such questions requires a learning process. I have nothing against IQ tests being used in certain contexts, like a company assessing the abstract thinking capabilities of a candidate, but I strongly reject the notion that they can be used to measure some kind of natural intelligence in a way that is independent of environment and education.

As for the China IQ results, there are two things that I would like you to consider: First, I didn't say that IQ depends on GDP, but that it depends on education. A country like Argentina, with a relatively low GDP per head but with a literate and well-educated population, has a much better IQ score in Lynn and Vanhanen's list than other Latin American countries where big pools of illiteracy exist.

As for China, the increase in literacy levels since the sixties has been impressive. Not only that, but it is a characteristic of the East Asian educational system that Mathematics is a very important subject in the official curricula. The algebra and geometry problems that teenage students in East Asia are confronted with would leave many European or American students of the same age speechless. There's also the theory, which I admit is very speculative, that learning thousands of characters to write gives you an advantage in terms of shape recognition over those who have learned an alphabet of a few letters. That could also be a factor in explaining those extra points in East Asian IQ scores.

In spite of that, I have to admit that the 100 figure is pretty high for a country where there is still a lot of poverty. But, you see, I take all these results published by Vanhanen and Lynn with a pinch of salt. How could they ensure that all the data taken in such a lot of countries has been collected in a uniform way? Are the China results based on tests taken all over the country? Did they involve people from all walks of life and ages? I wouldn't be surprised if they werre based on a few tests taken in Shanghai or Beijing.

And, by the way, it seems that even Lynn and Vanhanen admit that IQ scores recorded for China in the past were much lower than the latest data they use. The sad thing is that they refuse to put that down to the improvement in numeracy and literacy. Instead, they put it down to the famine and general harsh conditions of life in previous decades, which somehow would have weakened the brains of the older generation of Chinese. I completely disagree with that explanation.

In short, my view is that IQ tests are a sort of basic numeracy and literacy test. They may assess abilities in abstract thinking that are different from the knowledge of facts, but such abilities are also gained through learning.

[Jose]

Oh, I forgot about Equatorial Guinea.

First, I don't sympathise with the dictatorship of Teodoro Obiang at all, and I never said that EG is a model country. What I did was provide a list of GDP growth forecasts that proves that, contrary to what the racists of this world would have you believe, African countries, given the right conditions of peace and stability, can and DO grow. There are actually several African countries among those that are expected to enjoy the highest growth rates next year. I couldn't help finding it quite an amusing paradox that, when we're all talking about the breath-neck pace of growth in China, the country with the highest growth is actually the very same one that is listed in the last position in your sacrosanct Lynn-Vanhanen classification.

As for the language situation in EG, it is, as I said in a previous thread, peculiar, even by African standards. There are only two indigenous languages in EG: Bubi, spoken on the island of Bioko; and Fang, spoken in the continental part, and in the adjoining parts of Gabon and Cameroon.

Because the language situation is relatively simple, the country hasn't needed a European lingua franca as much as other bigger African countries have. So, Spanish (a minor language in Africa) has never been too widely spoken. Besides, during the last few years EG has been forging closer ties with the nearby French-speaking countries. Not only do they use the central CFA franc, but they have also made French official. So, right now both Spanish and French are official languages there. And then, because of the oil industry, there has been a lot of immigration from the French-speaking neighbours, and from Nigeria. The Nigerians in EG speak mainly Ibo and pidgin English, so these languages have become common too.

So now you have people who speak Fang and Spanish, people who speak Fang and French, people who speak Bubi and Spanish, people who speak pidgin English and Ibo; and people who speak, to varying degrees of proficiency, more than two of these languages.

I don't know if this can explain the extremely low IQ results in EG, but it is a factor to take into consideration. How do you test a group of people in a country where there is no universally known language? How and where were those tests carried out? Who took them?

I don't expect you to agree with me, but I would like you to at least acknowledge that these issues about ethnicity and IQ are much more complex than your simplistic approach. Please don't say that it is a fact that the people of such-and-such country are a bunch of idiots, or that it is their collective fault if their living conditions aren't good. I'm not a Filipino or a Guinean, but I can't stand it when people are insulted or despised just because they happen to come from a particular corner of the world, or because their skin has a certain colour.

[djwebb2004]

Jose, your knowledge of the Hispanic world is rather patchy! Argentina is the most developed country in Latin America, so there is no mismatch between the IQ level and the GDP per head level as you claim. In PPP terms Argentina has a GDP per head equivalent to $12,000. GDP per head in Brazil at PPP| is less than $9,000.

Your assumption that illiterate peasants are incapable of abstract reasoning is simply your own racial arrogance. In fact peasants frequently have to confront practical problems when building irrigation canals etc. China has a very high IQ. There is no evidence that IQ tests are only taken in Beijing and Shanghai - I suppose you know that China is more than 40% urbanised, or is you China knowledge as patchy as your Hispanic world knowledge? - but if you have that evidence, POST it. Anyway who came into contact with Chinese would be away that they are a very intelligent people just held back by communism. Your assumption that the characters are behind higher literacy - mi cariño, I am sorry to disappoint you, but Vietnamese IQs are just as high as those in areas of East Asia that use characters!! So that shoots your argument down in flames.

[djwebb2004]

Tonto, the discovery of oil in any small country combined with higher oil prices would produce a large rise in paper GDP. But the government of EG is not using the money to develop the country? You refuse to acknowledge this and engage with this reality. Are dictators better if they speak Spanish? No one who visited EG would conclude this was a middle income country, and yet on paper owing to the oil, it should be. I am glad that Spanish is declining in EG! Spain is the European country I admire the least, you see. Although I admit that El Cid and Los Reyes Catolicos were brilliant. What you fail to admit is that speaking more than one language should improve, not detract from IQ. I have met NIgerians who speak English, Yoruba and pidgin English!! The point about IQ tests is that they are usually conducted within the education system. Children are tested in whatever language they are being taught in. The fact that there are a range of languages spoken does not make it true to say that children are tested in languages they cannot speak!!! I know Belgians who speak 5 or 6 languages - according to you they should be mental retards as a result!

[carlo]

I have a PhD in maths and have been around people with ridiculously high IQ for years. I can tell you, many of these folks couldn't arrange a cocktail party, let alone build a successful company or lead a nation. Their talents obviously lie elsewhere. Individual achievements in IQ tests, or even the distribution of these results within a population, are NOT directly related to the social achievements of the group.

To conquer other countries, you need better weapons. To have better weapons, you need the brains to make them. But brains don't work in a vacuum. *Society* tells scientists *what* they should invent. This is why, btw, the invention of gunpowder doesn't necessarily imply the existence of guns.

Human societies evolve in a different way and at a different pace from the human species as a whole. IQ testing isn't meant to measure the efficiency of human societies, but only a small subset of skills of a given individual. It's not clear or obvious either that these skills can be passed on to one's descendants, and to what extent.

It seems all you have learned from your Chinese friends is European 19th-century pseudo science.

[djwebb2004]

I have a PhD in maths and have been around people with ridiculously high IQ for years. I can tell you, many of these folks couldn't arrange a cocktail party, let alone build a successful company or lead a nation. Their talents obviously lie elsewhere. Individual achievements in IQ tests, or even the distribution of these results within a population, are NOT directly related to the social achievements of the group.

To conquer other countries, you need better weapons. To have better weapons, you need the brains to make them. But brains don't work in a vacuum. *Society* tells scientists *what* they should invent. This is why, btw, the invention of gunpowder doesn't necessarily imply the existence of guns.

Human societies evolve in a different way and at a different pace from the human species as a whole. IQ testing isn't meant to measure the efficiency of human societies, but only a small subset of skills of a given individual. It's not clear or obvious either that these skills can be passed on to one's descendants, and to what extent.

Thank you for you "comments". Most geneticists believe that intelligence is at least partly hereditary. At the most basic level intelliigence has a biological foundation. For example, we notice the difference in intelligence between a fish and a horse. There is an evolutionary difference between them. Or are you suggesting human intelligence has no biological, basis? If you wish to overturn the whole of biology, go right ahead, but you will have to do more work in order to do so. As far as I know there is not a single geneticists since the days of Charles Darwin who has ever denied that human intelligence has a biological basis in the evolutionary development of the brain. They may have argued that the development of human society either fosters or restricts the extent to which an individual can reach his potential, but I don't think any serious scientist has ever argued with the basic genetics of the evolution of human intelligence. What you say about the social achievements of the group DOES depend on the Bell Curve of the society concerned. In India for example - average IQ 84 - the Brahmins are a noted high IQ group, meaning that good leadership should be available if the political system permits. But by showing that among black communities IQs of 100 are as rare as very high IQs are among white communities, it is reasonable to assume that even elite groups in Africa cannot intellectually compete with their counterparts in Europe, regardless of the IQ level of the man in the street in the respective countries. As I say to all other posters in this thread, please try to THINK before replying. A PhD in Maths may not help you to answer this question - but look around your colleagues. Are the PhDs in Maths you have met mainly African American? No, I thought not. Reach your own conclusion.

[Jose]

djweebb, this is getting boring and too personal.

I was thinking of posting data about Argentinian GNP and some other stuff, but who cares? I think your position and mine are sufficiently clear.

This will be my last post in this thread. I just would like to offer you some advice.

The attitude you display in your posts is quite worrying. You will deny it, but your arrogance reveals a deeply troubled personality. Not only do you hate half the population of the planet, but you insult anyone who dares to confront your views.

I think you should reflect about yourself. You may be much more intelligent than me, but you certainly lack a lot of human qualities. Why don't you try to have a better opinion about people? Maybe we're all not so stupid. Maybe you can learn from others. Maybe there are things about you that are far from perfect. Try not to be so arrogant, and you will probably feel rewarded as an individual. For a start, people will like you more if you respect them and don't treat them as if they were all a bunch of imbeciles. I wonder if you have any friends at all.

You say that you admire China. And so do I. May I remind you of the value that Chinese culture attaches to modesty as a human virtue? That is my advice for you: Be more modest, and less arrogant, and you will certainly feel better as a human being.

[djwebb2004]

This will be my last post in this thread.

Thank goodness for that!!

[Green Pea]

*Society* tells scientists *what* they should invent.

It seems all you have learned from your Chinese friends is European 19th-century pseudo science.

Society tells scientists what to do and also what to believe and how to think. So, if society tells them to disregard the data, ignore the research, and blur the facts, then the scientists will do it. It seems to me that that is the real "pseudo-science."

You say that you admire China. And so do I. May I remind you of the value that Chinese culture attaches to modesty as a human virtue?

There is also a Chinese saying that says "实事求是"

[owen]

I would have stopped 'arguing' with djwebb long ago and broken a bottle on his face.

[djwebb2004]

Owen, you are a BAD LOSER in debate!!

[GuernseyMatt]

Dear Webby,

As interesting as SOME of your input into this string has been, the only thing you have managed to prove is a lack of patience with people who you obiously feel superior too.

As far as I can see you certainly haven't won anything apart from other peoples distaste.

[carlo]

別客氣! Sorry, I haven't read the books you mention, though I've met several African American mathematicians, physicists etc, if that's an issue.

I'm all for 實事求是. Assume that your data is correct. You haven't even given a reason why the *average* of IQ scores is important. A probability distribution only tells you what is true for almost all x. How can it account for the sudden appearance of genius? If a very small group of very smart fellows comes up with the idea for a fusion reactor, their 'dumb' friends only have to follow their instructions, and they'll have nuclear fusion before other societies. How does IQ measure leadership skills? Why does a given society value high IQ individuals or even listen to them, rather than burning them at the stake?

And how many politicians in the world are there who are at the relative high end of the IQ distribution in their respective societies? Show me ONE. G W Bush? Of course intelligence has a biological basis. Have you read Cavalli-Sforza's 'The Geography of Human Genes'? How much do you know of genetics applied to human population studies? Your way of confusing biological with societal evolution is not exactly cutting edge.

What I find objectionable is the abuse of emotional and logically flawed arguments to dress up your own personal beliefs as 'science'. Obviously you can believe what you want. But if you hope to win other people over, you'll have to *think* harder.