Compounds (辭) vs. Characters (字) and the need to preserve the latter

[Mark Yong]

Please pardon the apparent unrelatedness of my statement regarding my Shanghai colleagues tending to write e-mails in English.

To put things in context: The Shanghainese colleagues I was referring to work for multi-national organisations, and happen to be quite fluent in English. By contrast, the local Chinese suppliers whom I worked with (even the ones based out of Shanghai) knew very little English - so much so that they initially avoided responding to my English e-mails, until I realised the problem and switched to Chinese language e-mails, which promptly opened up all communication lines (my stubborn adherence to using 繁體字 notwithstanding!).

I cannot say for certain why my colleagues tended to prefer writing e-mails in English (even when the subject at hand did not require an extensive amount of techno-commercial jargon), but I suspect that it had a lot to do with being able to type faster in English, than typing in Chinese using pinyin and having to swim through the 異義同音 lists once every 4-5 characters inputted.(which is my current motivation for learning 倉頡輸入法). True, a native Chinese speaker who is adept at typing in Chinese can do pretty well at speed-typing. But in my colleagues’ case, they were not full-time stenographers who required Chinese speed-typing skills, and they happened to be good at English - so, all factors taken into consideration, the balance tipped in favour of typing in English. That’s my guess, anyway.

The reason I brought that up in this thread is because it seemed to illustrate that one of the downsides of the Chinese script is the difficulty in finding an ideal input system for it on digital devices. The key word here is ‘ideal’, for the options available today are legion (my recent favourite is the handwriting-recognition “SCUD gPen” for Android).

skylee - In making that statement, I did not mean to suggest that my Shanghainese colleagues were Anglophiles by any measure. I once communicated with a Hong Kong Professor of Chinese Studies via e-mail (I was looking for a dialect dictionary at that time), and even he told me that he finds it easier to type in English than in Chinese. So, I guess that hits the point home.

I hope this clears the air, and apologies for any confusion caused in the digression.

[Iriya]

Typing in English is faster than in Chinese? Wow, that's new to me. In all modern pinyin input systems you only have to input the first letter of a syllable. E.g. 'zgr' = 中国人, 'yxgs' = 有限公司, etc. Sogou in particular has a very impressive dictionary, with all kinds of jargon and slang, so you very rarely have to manually input a word character by character (although even in this case you only have to do it once, the system remembers it after that).

[skylee]

Typing in English is faster than in Chinese? Wow, that's new to me.

Yes, it is so for many people. So this piece of information is no longer new to you from now on.

I use Sogou, a modern pinyin input system, at home and on my mobile. It is still easier for me to type in English.

[rezaf]

"Before hastily labelling people 崇洋媚外, please consider that there are Chinese people who genuinely find it easier to write in English, either because they are not good at Chinese, or because they are not good at or used to typing Chinese."

It usually starts as 崇洋媚外 as in being fascinated by the language, life-style architecture and culture of the more dominant civilization and after some time you might even feel more comfortable using a foreign language comparing to your own language. I don’t know much about Hong Kong but if people do it all the time then I suppose it’s related to Hong Kong’s long history as a British colony and probably a more focus on education in English comparing to Mainland. However most white-collar workers I have seen in Shanghai who use a lot of English in communicating with fellow Chinese people are not more comfortable in using English than Chinese and can use perfect Chinese when they meet government officials (who don’t speak English) in a much more efficient way.

*However I agree that typing pinyin is 麻烦 and cangjie needs a lot of practice.

[anonymoose]

It usually starts as 崇洋媚外 as in being fascinated by the language, life-style architecture and culture of the more dominant civilization

If one is fascinated by a foreign language, foreign architecture and so on, does that make one 崇洋媚外? 崇洋媚外 is a derogatory expression meaning 对外国人盲目崇拜，奉承巴结. I am fascinated by Chinese language and architecture, yet I definitely don't blindly worhip Chinese. I think one should be more prudent when using derogatory language to describe others. As skylee has pointed out, there may be legitimate reasons other than being 崇洋媚外 for typing in English. Do you realise that some companies in Shanghai also have a policy of communicating in English?

[skylee]

Just want to say that I find 崇洋媚外 a very negative term, and I usually react very badly to it. The problem is the word 媚, and it brings to mind 阿諛諂媚 every time I see it.

Sorry about going off-topic.

[Mark Yong]

Iriya wrote:

In all modern pinyin input systems you only have to input the first letter of a syllable. E.g. 'zgr' = 中国人, 'yxgs' = 有限公司, etc.

True, but have you also noticed that in many instances, even typing the initial letters can generate multiple possibilities? I worked for the heavy industry when I was in the China market, and conveyors were our bread-and-butter. Try typing ‘ssj’ - you will probably find that 輸送機 is somewhere way down the combination list at number 9 or 10 (that’s what I got with Google Pinyin, not sure about Sogou). And understandably so, as it is a specialised word compared to the other ‘ssj’ possibilities, e.g. 三十九, 四十九, 所涉及 and 時尚界. Of course, Google Pinyin eventually memorises the combinations that are used more frequently than others and moves them up-and-down the priority list, but not all words have the statistical good fortune of being cherry-picked like this.

Also, due consideration should be given to our friends in Hong Kong and Taiwan who may not necessarily be using pinyin (incidentally, I happen to have a number of Hong Kong friends in Australia who have precisely that problem, i.e. finding a suitable Chinese input system for their Smartphones, given that they were not educated in pinyin).

rezaf wrote:

...most white-collar workers I have seen in Shanghai who use a lot of English in communicating with fellow Chinese people are not more comfortable in using English than Chinese and can use perfect Chinese when they meet government officials (who don’t speak English) in a much more efficient way.

.

Correct, and my Shanghainese colleagues, as a rule, speak among themselves exclusively in Chinese (as if I would expect otherwise!) - I estimate the ratio between Mandarin and Shanghainese to be about 90-10. I am sure they are more fluent in written Chinese than written English, it’s probably the specific case of typing that they sometimes tend to use English. A few of my colleagues who did much more Chinese typing in their previous work swore by 五筆輸入法 as a superior system for 簡體字, but got rusty after several years of not using it, abandoning it in favour of pinyin (I believe it was because Windows in China only came with pinyin as the default input, not 五筆 - this was 2005-2007, by the way).

anonymoose wrote:

Do you realise that some companies in Shanghai also have a policy of communicating in English?

Just to clarify: The e-mails between my Shanghainese colleagues that I was referring to were informal (i.e. non-work-related) ones. Also, many of their clients were government-linked companies, which meant that formal e-mail correspondences to clients in Chinese were the norm.

[imron]

swore by 五筆輸入法 as a superior system for 簡體字

我同意

[jkhsu]

Just want to say that I find 崇洋媚外 a very negative term, and I usually react very badly to it.

@skylee: I agree with you on this. I hastily quoted rezaf and generally agreed with his statement but this phrase is on the harsh side. I do believe that many native Chinese who know some English like to practice it (in emails) if they can and I do see that as one of the reasons why they'll write in English instead of Chinese. Another is that English is easier to type. What I disagree with is when Mark tried to prove that "the Chinese script is, for starters, imperfect and inefficient if compared with the versatility of alphabet-based writing systems" by using the example of Shanghainese colleagues writing English emails. I realize that Mark did mention "typing" in a later post and I'll agree with that.

@Mark: I'm still confused at what you are trying to say in this post. Is it:

1. Reverting back to 文言文 for writing?

2. Discontent over some Chinese words? (河口 vs. 河汭)?

3. Taiwan vs. mainland China writing styles, and somehow trying to point out that Taiwanese are better writers?

4. Traditional vs. simplified character set?

[skylee]

I happen to have a number of Hong Kong friends in Australia who have precisely that problem, i.e. finding a suitable Chinese input system for their Smartphones, given that they were not educated in pinyin

I have no problem with using pinyin input (in fact I prefer it) but I find the usual stroke order input (5 stroke-types) very easy to use. As long as you know how to write a word you can input it, assuming you know the right stroke order (usually the Taiwan Standard). The handwriting method is also good, if slow. I have found an app (Android) based on Cantonese romanisation which seems useful (requiring minimum learning) - it is called 繁體中文輸入工具. There might be an iPhone version but I am not sure. Your friends might find it useful.

Just trying to be helpful. Sorry for going off-topic.

[Mark Yong]

jkhsu,

The thread has morphed quite a bit from my original post and intent, so I will try to bring it back to baseline, as I attempt to address your question above.

The original intent of my thread was to voice my views on the gradual dropping of characters from the Modern Standard Chinese mainstream lexicon, and that I felt it would be good if these characters were brought back into the mainstream. At the time I put up the original post, I did not have many examples on-hand, so for want of something to put to the table as a basis for discussion, I (rather hastily, I confess) put forth the times of day and the shades of red, to illustrate my point.

I have my own views on reverting back to 文言文 as the standard, but that is outside the scope of this post (but if you must know, yes, I support the revival of 文言文 - not necessarily in 古文 form, but along the lines of the late-Qing writers like 康有爲 and 梁啟超). But the part where 文言文 is relevant to this post is the vocabulary. I did not have many ready examples on me, so I chose 汭 vs. 河口 to illustrate a point on how the revival of such a character into the mainstream can help to enrich the language today - be it via a wider lexical register, more accurate terminology, allowing the written language to return to and capitalise on its merit of compactness (and in this latter case, I chose 廉 vs. 便宜 and 叟 vs. 老人 to illustrate my point), etc.

Comparison between Taiwan and mainland China writing styles was neither the topic nor intent of my original post, but it inevitably cropped up in the discussions. I am not qualified to judge whether or not Taiwan churns out better writers than mainland China. All I can say is, my personal observation shows that Taiwanese tend to adopt a more literal style of writing, and tends towards my own personal preference. Others prefer a more colloquial (less pretentious?) writing style, which is fine.

But on the subject of Traditional vs. Simplified characters, I have to say that the inevitable conclusion for my support of character revival would, of course, be my support for Traditional Characters. Part of the effects of character simplification has been the merging and purging of characters, and this runs counter to the spirit and intent of my post.

Like I said at the start of the post, it is a slightly controversial topic (as evidenced by the strong responses I have received from some parties ), it goes totally against the current trends, and I therefore do not expect many (if any) to agree. I put up the points hoping to stimulate some constructive discussions, that’s all.

I hope this clarifies my stand.

[rezaf]

@Anonymoose: That’s exactly my point. You don’t do it blindly because you come from the dominant civilization.

@Skylee: 信言不美，美言不信.Look at the buildings around you and look at the clothes that people wear around you as well as their life-style. How much of it is western and how much of it is Chinese? At one point in the previous century Chinese people decided to give up the Chinese form of most of those things and adopt the western form. There are only two explanations:

1.They did it blindly :Which is 崇洋媚外

2.They didn’t do it blindly： Which means they actually sat down and concluded that the Chinese form was really crappy.

Well it might be a combination of both but I think the first reason is more likely in most cases. The same thing has been happening to many other aspects of the Chinese society like language and culture and if Chinese people don’t protect them they will actually fade away which is a real pity because Chinese language/culture is one of the few that has more or less kept its unity and knowledge for a few thousand of years.

[skylee]

rezaf, you don't seem to realise that your post #58 is offensive, or the weight of the chengyu 崇洋媚外 that you keep using (or perhaps you do). Well I will leave the white-collar people in Shanghai to defend themselves.

[Mark Yong]

rezaf wrote:

The same thing has been happening to many other aspects of the Chinese society like language...

If I may quote an example from 陳雲’s 《中文解毒》. He writes about 英式中文, citing the example of how the English phrase “Embracing Changes” has been literally translated into 『擁抱轉變』, where the proper Chinese language equivalent should be 『順應時勢』.

[rezaf]

There is a reason why laozi said1 信言不美，美言不信。
2 善者不辯，辯者不善。
3 知者不博，博者不知。
4 聖人不積，既以為人己愈有，既以與人己愈多。
5 天之道，利而不害。聖人之道，為而不爭。

My intention was not offending anyone but I don't know a more polite expression for that.

[xiaocai]

If you don't know how to use a word appropriately, don't use it then. Simple.

However, some people may be considered as 崇洋媚外 because their overall behaviour gives people the impression that they feel superior about or are proud of their connections to foreign people and things. Unfortunately 上海白领 over the past couple of years, have build up their reputation of being the group with a very high percentage of individuals acting like that.

But personally I think 崇洋媚外 is a word that is very strong and judgemental and now is heard more often just in personal attacks, and one should avoid using it as much as they can.

And rezaf, how about using a word which is slightly more polite than "crappy"? It seems to me that it may not have been a single choice of word but more likely some of your ways of arguing make people feel offended...

Personally I like typing in Chinese better, as I learned typing Chinese first. I also communicate with other people in Chinese most of the time, unless they specify that they prefer English or they do not read Chinese. It is all up to your personal preference, and, I think, so should styles of writing be. There have been proses in the higher education entrance exam fully written fluent classical Chinese that received full marks. But as for whether promoting a certain way of writing with the effort of the whole education system, mainly out of aesthetic reasons would be very rational, I think I have say no. I think 文言文 phased out was mostly because it is too different from they way people speak, and one has to spend much more effort, which could have been spent on something else the person is more interested in, to learn how to write it. It may look more succinct and elegant, but the learning curve is too steep and that is probably (partially) why illiterate rate was so high in ancient China. The word 河口 is very obvious and most of Chinese people with primary levels of education can understand it without referring to a dictionary, where as abandoning it and adapting 汭 means that everyone has to learn a brand new character. Maybe I should not complain much about expanding one's knowledge on their own language, but 提笔忘字 also comes up in my mind. And bear in mind that not everyone is gifted in languages, including their own ones.

And for typing Chinese, my impression is that words are much easier to type than single characters with both pinyin and wubi methods. Imagine typing 老人 and 叟 with pinyin: typing laoren seems be more time consuming than sou, however, we have to take the time of selection into consideration. 老人 will appear as the first choice after you have typed in laoren, you don't have to spend too much time looking for it in the box; whereas 叟, as you may know, will not be the first character coming up when you type in sou. And I don't know if you have used pinyin IME before or not, but I myself and many of my friends found prefer typing a full word over looking for a character in the selection box, and it is to a point that when I type an uncommon character like 骊, I would type the word 骊山 (which would be the first word coming up when you type in lishan) out and then delete the 山. Now we look at wubi. You may now say, then you have no excuses as every single character takes you exact four strokes. But it is not the case. Typing in single characters requires you to remember how to break down every character, whereas if you type in 词, you only have to remember less wubi codes to be able to get the same message across. Let's take 河口 and 汭 as and example again. If you have learned how break down 河 and 口, then you will know how to type the word. But if you want to use 汭 instead, the you need to learn how break down a new character. Not only this, the code for 汭 is take up by a character which only means 河口 but nothing else, which kind of makes whole system less efficient. So at least in a computerised setting, using compound base writing style will be more productive than character based ones, most of the time.

But just because less people are using 文言文, 繁体字, and 单音节词, it does not mean that we are forgetting them. There are always people using them out of their own interest. I don't plan to give any more example on the use of 文言文. Some forums I often visit will have people writing in complete 繁体字 and not too many people have issues with that. Also, I have no problem understanding the meaning of the 单音节词 you listed (maybe except for 汭). I don't wear 旗袍 to work everyday because it is inconvenient (think about the story of 胡服骑射), but it doesn't mean that I can not wear it for Chinese new year or a good friend's wedding. (But I have to admit that it is not easy to find a nicely fitting one.. )

[anonymoose]

And rezaf, how about using a word which is slightly more polite than "crappy"? It seems to me that it may not have been a single choice of word but more likely some of your ways of arguing make people feel offended...

Agreed.

[rezaf]

I believe that 崇洋媚外 is exactly what I meant and it’s not limited to China. Iranians are even more 崇洋媚外 which has resulted in losing a lot of good things of our own culture. I see the same thing happening in China and as someone who is fascinated by Chinese culture and language I am very worried that a lot of good things about them are being lost to history just because people are not trying to save them.

As for getting offended by an idea I think it is more about how mature the person who is being criticized thinks. Every idea only has two possibilities, it’s either true or false. If you think the criticism is false then there is no reason to get angry or offended. You can use reason to convince me that I am wrong. For example prove me that I am wrong about what I said about the building around us and the clothes we wear. If you think the criticism is true then there is also no reason to get angry or offended. In this case you can give it a thought and try to improve the problem.

Edit: Using "crappy" was also intentional because it emphasizes that people usually don't sit down and decide that their own culture is bad but it usually happens blindly.

[anonymoose]

As for getting offended by an idea I think it is more about how mature the person who is being criticized thinks. Every idea only has two possibilities, it’s either true or false.

It's not a question of true or false. It's the manner in which you express yourself. Unfortunately, your debate frequently carries a confrontational and offensive tone.

[rezaf]

Ok I'll try to use better words in the future.