Usage of 向来, 老是, 总是, 一直, 一向

[wilhal_18]

As the title said, i am very confused about the differences among

向来 (xiang lai) vs 老是 (lao shi) vs 总是 (zong shi) vs 一直 (yi zhi) vs 一向 (yi xiang). if I look at the dictionary, all of them were said to be ALWAYS. and I asked my chinese friend, he said NO, they are used differently, but he couldnt tell me how to use them.

This has been the most painful thing about learning chinese. there are so many vocabularies and there is not enough good books out there to explain how words are used.

In english, we only have "ALWAYS".

can anybody here shed some light for me what is the difference among "xiang lai" vs "lao shi" vs "zong shi" vs yi zhi vs "yi xiang"???

thank you for your help

[adrianlondon]

I'm not an expert, but we do have more than "always" in English.

I think 一直 is more like "<it>continuously<does something>" and 老是 is more like "<it>keeps<doing something>"

[Danny2312]

.....

[navaburo]

For subtle distinctions like these, I'd recommend using a Chinese-Chinese dictionary. If you're at the level where you care about this sort of distinction, then you can handle a dictionary like the Guifan (现代汉语规范辞典), especially if you use it electronically (e.g., from within Pleco) and you can just tap or mouse-over to get translations for unfamiliar words within the Chinese-language definition.

Sometimes a word will be defined in terms of synonyms; e.g., the Guifan defines 向来 as "一贯; 从来" and then gives an example usage: "向来说话算数", meaning 'to always keep one's word'. Othertimes you get a descriptive definition for each sense of a word. It might be worth a try for you.

-Chris

[wilhal_18]

Hi Chris,

Thanks but i do not use iphone : (

i dont know what you mean by subtle, they are not subtle to me. and even if its subtle, i am sure, it can be explained.

There are a lot of synonyms in english and they all can be explained (about 80% of them, i think).

[wilhal_18]

Danny, thanks so much for the explanation. Though, I am still confused, i do really appreciate your effort to explain these words to me.

Thanks danny.

[Olle Linge]

i dont know what you mean by subtle, they are not subtle to me. and even if its subtle, i am sure, it can be explained.

There are a lot of synonyms in english and they all can be explained (about 80% of them, i think).

He's not saying that they can't be explained, he's saying that explaining them in English comes with some difficulties. He's also saying that if you really need to know the exact difference between all these words, your Chinese should be at a level where you can use a Chinese-Chinese dictionary (and you don't need an iPhone, that was just an example). I tend to agree with him, too. It's simply not worth the effort digging yourself into these kind of distinctions if you're a beginner. Learn the most common versions and how they are used and you'll be fine. I think Danny's explanation is quite good, but if you want someone to explain more, you probably need to point out what you don't understand rather than just saying that you're still confused.

[wilhal_18]

Snigel, I am still confused between XIANG LAI vs ZONG SHI. if you read above, danny couldnt even explain why in certain cases we should use xiang lai, not zong shi.

Can you please explain these 2??

Ok so he said that xiang lai is like we have been doing something and so we use xiang lai. What about zong shi then??

Please explain. thanks

[roddy]

It's simply not worth the effort digging yourself into these kind of distinctions if you're a beginner.

Very true. Wilhal, how are you learning, and what dictionary are you using?

[creamyhorror]

My unqualified attempt at explaining the difference:

向来: "has always been / done [something]" (no change from the start)

总是: "always is / does [something]" (refers to current state of affairs)

Examples:

他向来很认真 = "He's always been earnest"

他总是很认真 = "He's always earnest"

* Notice the different implication of the English translations.

他总是看书，没别的兴趣 = "He is always reading books, and doesn't have other interests" (neutral or slightly negative)

他向来喜欢看书，没别的兴趣 = "He has always liked reading books, and doesn't have other interests" (neutral)

* Note that you can't say 他向来看书 as 看书 is not a continuous state/action that has been going on "since the start." On the other hand, 总是 can be and is often used for actions that are repeated many times.

[Altair]

向来: "has always been / done [something]" (no change from the start)

总是: "always is / does [something]" (refers to current state of affairs)

I think that this is good; however I think that 向来 does not emphasize so much the lack of change as the range of time beginning in the past. To stress the lack of change, I think you use 一向, 一直, or 一贯.

一向 stresses that that past behavior should be expected to remain unchanged in the present.

他一向很准时，一定会如约到达的。

He is always punctual, he will arrive as he promised.

一直 stresses the continuity of what is being described.

我一直在等你。

I've been waiting for you all the time.

我一直者想去看看长城。

I've always wanted to see the Great Wall.

一贯 stresses the consistency of the behavior.

我们一贯主张国家不分大小，一律平等。

We've always held that all nations, big or small, are equal.

向来 merely stresses that a behavior or situation has a history, not so much that there are no exceptions.

这两个民族之间向来可以通亲。

The two ethnicities have been intermarrying for a long time.

总是 seems to stress that a generalization is reliable and generally without exceptions.

她总是晚饭后出散步。

She always takes a walk outside after dinner.

老是 seems to stress that the situation matches an existing pattern of (usually negative) behavior.

你怎么老是这么晚回家？

Why do you always come home so late?

My examples are from nciku or various Pleco dictionaries. I should also add that many of these examples are overly precise in actual usage. In other words, various terms can and do often substitute for each other, but sometimes the difference in meaning is important to understand.

[creamyhorror]

I think that this is good; however I think that 向来 does not emphasize so much the lack of change as the range of time beginning in the past.

向来 merely stresses that a behavior or situation has a history, not so much that there are no exceptions.

There are two related usages of 向来 that I can see:

(5).从前；过去；原来。 宋 杨万里 《晚过常州》诗：“人民城廓依然是，只有向来鬚鬢非。” 明 高启 《登西城门》诗：“向来禾黍地，雨露长榛莽。” 清 纪昀 《阅微草堂笔记·槐西杂志四》：“我向来封为王，有血食之奉，故威福得行。”

This one is a general "in the past" meaning. I don't think it's very common in modern writing, but I could be wrong. This could be the usage in the example you quoted: "这两个民族之间向来可以通亲".

(4).从来；一向。 唐 唐彦谦 《玉蕊》诗：“向来尘不杂，此夜月仍光。” 元 张养浩 《登泰山》诗：“向来井处方知隘，今后巢居亦觉宽。”《醒世恒言·三孝廉让产立高名》：“这几年以来，所收米穀布帛，分毫不敢妄用，尽数开载在那册籍上。今日交付二弟，表为兄的向来心迹，也教众乡尊得知。” 杜鹏程 《保卫延安》第一章：“有些人，谁也不和谁说话，谁也不看谁，仿佛向来就不认识。”

This one specifically states "从来；一向", implying "consistently/without exception". The last example is a modern one: "仿佛向来就不认识" - "as if they'd never known each other". This meaning could apply to your 两个民族 example as well.

Also, I don't think there's much of a change if you substitute 向来 for 一向 in your example:

他向来很准时，一定会如约到达的。

Ultimately I don't think the distinction between 一向 and 向来 is very great. Interestingly, in Singapore, the expressions 一向来 and 一向以来 are even used (despite not being proper words by mainland standards). I think this may be because 一向 and 向来 are closely related or synonymous in most people's minds.

[wilhal_18]

@ creamy horror:

I am reading this and though still not 100% understanding it, but i want to say THANKS SO MUCH to creamy horror for the explanation. it was very good. I am in the office now and when i get back home, i will digest what you wrote to come up with the difference.

For yi zhi, i think the difference with zong shi is pretty clear.

The xiang lai and yi xiang and zong shi is the worst.

anyway, thanks creamy horror.

[wilhal_18]

@roddy

i am using nciku online dictionary and TUTTLE LEARNER'S DICTIONARY which i recommend a lot to all of chinese learners out there. this is one of the best dictionary so far that i have used as beginner.

and roddy, i dont quite agree if you think i shouldnt care about these differences. These are very important.

There are so many people out there that just learn the language and never know of how to use it properly. well, i am not learning chinese just for survival. I am deeply in love with the language, so i need to know these.

Yes, its hard to explain but should I ignore it because of that? nope, i dont think so.

[Olle Linge]

There are so many people out there that just learn the language and never know of how to use it properly. well, i am not learning chinese just for survival. I am deeply in love with the language, so i need to know these.

Yes, its hard to explain but should I ignore it because of that? nope, i dont think so.

It's a matter of priority. No-one is telling you that the difference is useless or that you should never learn it, we're just raising the question if it's relevant for you right now. Of course, that's up to you to decide. The problem I see is that if you use this attitude to everything you encounter in Chinese, you won't be able to use the language at all or it will take you many, many years to get to a level where you can actually communicate. Rather than spending hours trying to figure out the exact differences between fairly similar words, you could be learning new words instead or you could be practising speaking/listening/reading/writing. So, we're not saying this for a lack of love of Chinese or something. Naturally, you can still do as you please, we're just trying to help.

[wilhal_18]

hi snigel,

i got your point. Dont worry. i know how to manage my time. I am not caught up on this kind of thing. I am still learning the chinese characters, grammars, etc.

I analyze this along the way. Thanks for your advice, but really i know what i am doing. Besides, chinese is a difficult language anyway. one day, sooner or later, i have to face this kind of problem, so i better get used to it.

anyway, if you feel that you can describe the difference, please explain it to me. i wanna hear your explanation.

thanks

[roddy]

Fair enough, but Tuttle and Nciku are inadequate tools for the job, and asking random people on the Internet isn't much better. You need some kind of usage information - this is the kind of thing.

[Altair]

Ultimately I don't think the distinction between 一向 and 向来 is very great.

I would agree. This is what I meant by saying "I should also add that many of these examples are overly precise in actual usage."

In English, when we say: "He has always been so punctual," do we really mean without exception? It is not quite the same as saying, "He has never arrived late." All languages tend toward hyperbole, and so I think fine distinctions (if they really ever existed) tend to break down. I think whatever difference there may be or may have been between 一向 and 向来 would come from the totalizing meaning of 一.

This one is a general "in the past" meaning. I don't think it's very common in modern writing, but I could be wrong. This could be the usage in the example you quoted: "这两个民族之间向来可以通亲".

I am not sure I agree that "in the past" would be a good translation. In addition to translating these words with "always," you can also translate them with "all along." This phrase would then be: "These two ethnicities have been able to intermarry all along." This implies that there is no exception where these two ethnicities have not been able to intermarry, without rely focusing on the lack of exceptions.

I think that behind the English word "always" lurks a range of meanings and emphases that are represented by a range of overlapping Chinese expressions that suggest: "without exception," "consistently," "continually," "continuously," "reliably," etc. If I say, "I always sing when I work," I could be expressing a range of these overlapping meanings. Depending on which I wanted to emphasize, I think I would gravitate to a different Chinese expression, but I agree that the meanings are all quite similar.

[wilhal_18]

@roddy: I think i may buy that book. it looks really good : )

and guys, for now, please focus on zong shi and xiang lai. I think i finally figure out the yi zhi and lao shi.

i will take xiang lai and yi xiang as the same.

[wilhal_18]

guys, i think i understand these much better now.

However, there is 1 thing i would like to clarify before jumping to conclusion:

if i want to say "I WILL ALWAYS LOVE YOU", can i use YIXIANG / XIANGLAI/ YIZHI?

i know we cant use laoshi and zongshi.