Which Chinese philosopher or philophical school do you like?

[madizi]

Which Chinese philosopher and/or philophical school do you like most?

I like Laozi (Dao De jing).... also like Zhuangzi and his story Butterfly dreams (Hudie meng).

[bhchao]

You can find some information on Confucianism and Legalism here. However it's just a brief intro.

http://www.chinese-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1635.

Personally I prefer Daoism and Confucianism, even though I don't agree entirely with the latter. Confucianism is good for the family, but less so for society as a whole (just my opinion).

Legalism is a little too dark, and was taken to extremes by Shang Yang, Qin Shi Huang, and Li Si. However the Han dynasty was able to survive for 400 years by mixing Confucianism and Legalism together.

[bhchao]

madizi, have you read 淮南子?

[madizi]

Wow, you call this "brief info"? It's really an exhaustive study on Legalism. But I didn't heard before that, under Qin, there were Confucian scholars buried alive. Where did you get that info?

Unfortunately, I didn't read Huan Nanzi yet. But I've heard that it is eclectic work, which conbines thoughts of all kind of schools. It was written by Liu An (but I'm not sure, correct me if I'm wrong).

[skylee]

But I didn't heard before that, under Qin, there were Confucian scholars buried alive. Where did you get that info?

From 史記, probably. There is an idiom - 焚書坑儒. Take a look -> http://140.111.1.22/clc/chengyu/mandarin/fulu/dict/cyd/3/cyd03768.htm

[madizi]

Thank you, Skylee. But I have a problem with encoding, because none of known encodings works and I'm unable to read the page.

[Claw]

That page is in Big5 encoding, so it should work if you choose the "Chinese Traditional (Big5)" encoding in your browser.

Here's the relevant information from that page in case you still can't see it:

成語條目

焚書坑儒

釋義

秦始皇三十四年，丞相李斯上言儒生是古非今，反對批評朝政、法令，因此建議除了秦記、醫藥、卜筮、種樹等書外，一律燒毀，及談論詩書或以古非今者皆誅戮。次年，方 士、儒生盧生等為始皇求不到仙藥，之後，盧生、侯生不滿始皇剛愎暴戾而逃亡，始皇 大怒，於咸陽坑殺四百六十餘名儒生。見史記．卷六．秦始皇本紀。

[madizi]

Thank you, Claw. Very nice of you!

[madizi]

Because such things happened under Qin, then it is no suprise that Han dinasty had to wrap up Legalism in Confucian fold. It was done by Dong Zhongshu, who established Confucian state doctrine in Han dinasty. Actually I think that Han rulers prefered Legalism, but they didn't want to exercise it fully, because they saw what happened with Qin.

Any thoughts on this?

[bhchao]

It depends on the ruler's preferences.

When Liu Bang established the Han dynasty, he retained the Qin's bureaucratic structures and many Qin laws remained de facto. He had a contempt for the scholarly, but did not persecute them. The worst thing he ever did to a Confucian scholar was grab the hat of one of them, urinate into it, put it back on the poor man's head, and took off laughing uproariously.

His son Liu Heng (Wendi) ruled in a Confucian manner. Wendi exercised minimal government intervention in economic affairs, slashed taxes dramatically, avoided luxury and expenses, and started the first civil service exams. Wendi was also the first Han emperor to abolish the practice of killing entire families for one person's offense. He took this action after hearing the pleas of a daughter whose father was convicted of an offense. Although he abolished most of the Qin mutilation laws, he retained some of them. For example, a man who forced a woman to marry him was to have his left foot and ears cut off.

Jingdi's reign was similarly Confucian.

Han Wudi was the quintessential "Legalist" Han emperor. He was a slightly improved reincarnation of Qin Shi Huang. Very sensitive to criticism, he often executed people who disagreed with him. During a policy discussion with his ministers, one person was executed because he made a slight twist of his lips, which the emperor interpreted as dissent. Another person who strongly criticized Wudi was boiled alive in front of him in the palace.

Like Qin Shi Huang before him, he was obsessed with immortality and made constant trips to TaiShan. One official who drank an immortality potion prepared for him was sentenced to death. But the official had the good common sense to say "If the potion is not the genuine and authentic healer that you thought it to be, then what harm have I done?" This saved the official.

Although Wudi established a Confucian academy (based on Dong Zhongshu's advice) to train talented people in the Confucian Classics, his reign wasn't really Confucian. He preferred Legalism. In other words, his reign was a Legalist one adopted under a Confucian guise. For example, his expansionist policies, institution of government monopolies on salt and iron, and raising of taxes to finance his expansionism resembled Legalist practices. If you were a Confucian in his government, you most likely would have opposed these policies. If you were a Legalist in his government, you would have supported them. Ironically he had both Confucian and Legalist ministers in his government.

Wudi also killed entire families for a person's crime, although not as frequently as Qin Shi Huang.

On a side note, I haven't read 淮南子 either. My former college professor wrote a book about it. http://www.i-tjingcentrum.nl/boekenkast/details/1850.html

Liu An was an uncle of Wudi, and was forced to commit suicide for plotting rebellion against the emperor. His work is a collection of Taoist treatises that caught the emperor's interest.

I might check it out in the future when I have time.

[bhchao]

madizi, I agree with your comment about people being born neither good nor bad. Good people can become bad from exposure to external forces or influences. It's certainly not true that people are evil right from the time they were born. Let's just say people were born "neutral"

I think "bad" is a bad word as in Xunzi's case of "people were born bad". I do not think that would be the word he would have used. It's just that he believed that people's natural inner desires are predominant throughout their lives, and can lead them to make impulsive actions while disregarding its consequences to society.

According to him, one of man's natural desires is profit (nothing wrong with that actually). People will gradually want more profit, and if unchecked by the state, these people will become corrupt and greedy. His teachings indirectly influenced Legalist thought. That is why we have laws today regulating the corporate and financial sectors.

"People were born irrational" would be a more accurate wording for Xunzi's "hard" Confucianist beliefs.

I find Xunzi to be more realistic than Mengzi.

Actually I think that Han rulers prefered Legalism, but they didn't want to exercise it fully, because they saw what happened with Qin

You are partially right. As I mentioned, it depends on the individual ruler's preferences. The Han emperors certainly were aware of what happened with Qin's experience with Legalism. That awareness, along with their own personal preferences, was a factor in their inclination towards Confucianism or Legalism. Wudi tilted towards Legalism, but even he didn't exercise it fully.

[madizi]

Sorry, for replying so late. I cought ganmao and have fashao. This is going on for a week now....... Sorry, but my answer is short.

I agree with term "neutral". Maybe more appropriate term would be "tabula rasa", but this term has heavy burden in background, because it was used in colonial era. But "irrational".........? Can you please explain?

Hope that next week I'll have enough strength to write more on this topic.

[bhchao]

But "irrational".........? Can you please explain?

Sorry for the late response. A good example would be Zhang Ziyi's character in CTHD. She wants to do what she feels like doing, and in the process destroys the lives of those around her. Li Mu Bai realized that she is not evil inside, but just needed proper training and education.

[marcopolo79]

I can't believe that your list left off Zhu Xi, perhaps the most innovative and significant philosopher of the past past two millennia. The contribution influence of 理學 on Confucian thought as it entered the immediate pre-modern era is arguably as great as that of Confucius' original doctrine. Zhu Xi's philosophy was the culmination of intellectual and philosophical activities which had their origin with the 古文 movement and 韓愈 as well as perhaps the most sophisticated synthesis of Buddhist and Confucian ideas, as such it represents one of the most outstanding achievments in the intellectual history of China.

[madizi]

First, sorry for late reply. Have a lot of work lately.....

(In meantime, Chinese philosophy forum was cancled and moved here....sigh!)

As far as I know, Zhu Xi was (co)founder of Neo-Confucian thought which was synthesis of Confucian, Buddhist and Daoist thought. But it still was part of Confucianism and became a part of state doctrine.

I think that many people see Zhu Xi in negative light. He is often accused of making state doctrine rigid and unflexible. This lead to lack of inovations and decline of Chinese state. One of results was half-colonial status of China in 19th century.

But I don't think that Zhu Xi knew the consequences of his thought.

[gato]

First, sorry for late reply. Have a lot of work lately.....

(In meantime, Chinese philosophy forum was cancled and moved here....sigh!)

Welcome back. Keep on posting. We need you.