s/sh distinction in Chinese learning material

[WestTexas]

I suppose this is a topic I've wanted to ramble about for awhile. The main point I want to make is that I feel like the majority of Chinese learning material inadequately addresses the fact that the s/sh distinction does not exist for many (most?) Chinese people. I understand that in standard Chinese it is there, but the fact is that's just not how the majority of people talk. I feel like Chinese teachers should tell students about the s/sh distinction in the first semester of study, how it exists in standard mandarin but not in practice for most Chinese people. I also feel like the typical uber-standard listening material which is used in classes should be supplemented with material in which the s/sh distinction is blurred, as that is how many southern Chinese as well as many in the northeast (where standard Chinese is supposedly spoken by all, though that's not the case). This would better prepare students for dealing with actual Chinese people rather than the unnaturally standard recordings on their HSK test. The z/zh distinction could be done in a similar manner.

Personally I live in the northeast, in an area which supposedly has very standard Mandarin. Where I live, maybe 1/3 people say all sh sounds as s. In Shenyang, the largest city in the northeast, many people cannot tell the difference at all, and I have heard the same about Dalian. I just feel like the s/sh distinction is not being effectively presented in teaching materials, and I feel like it would be better if students were exposed to this early. I don't have any actual statistics, but I estimate probably around 1/3-1/2 of the people in the northeast, supposedly the most standard area, either cannot hear or do not pronounce the difference between the two sounds. I have heard that in southern China no one pronounces them differently. The population of southern China is greater than northern China anyways, so why are the phonetics being taught in a way that will hamper communication with a majority of Chinese?

Any comments?

[xiaocai]

s/sh distinction is one of the first things we learn in primary school Chinese class. The problem is that many people do not speak standard Mandarin as their first language in China and when they speak casually, dialectical influence is almost unavoidable. But I don't feel non-standard Mandarin will cause too many communication problems among Chinese people. And many younger people who was exposed to spoken standard Mandarin and had relatively proper training at an early age in school can pronounce them more or less accurately, regardless whether they are from northern or southern China. So I think it is a good idea that one can stick to the distinction from the very beginning, because it is much harder to correct if you have learnt it wrong in the first place. As for in real life situation, I think you will slowly get used to different accents once you have had enough exposure to them.

[WestTexas]

As a foreigner I learned Chinese for two years at a university in the US and did not know about this at all before coming to China. I have also looked at a decent number of books for foreigners which do not seem to mention it at all, and I think it should be mentioned, that many Chinese do not pronounce these correctly.

You say it doesn't cause communication problems among Chinese people - that seems to be true, but it's not really my point. My point is that I think that, for foreign learners, there isn't enough exposure to the phenomenon that many Chinese do not pronounce them distinctly.

[xiaocai]

I think two years is a bit too short to get into non-standard accents if you were learning Mandarin from scratch. Maybe your case is different but that was how I felt when I started learning English. If they threw in all regional variants at early stages they may have negative influence on your standard Mandarin. It does take time to get used to different accents, but it seems to me it is the only way to go, because there are just not many shortcuts in learning languages...

[Guest realmayo]

It's interesting you say lots of people in the north don't make the distinction -- I've only spent a few days north of the Yangtse (Beijing) but assumed, not least from these forums, that northerners all made the s/sh distinction.

Still, I can't see the benefit of not teaching foreigners the standard type of Chinese. I can see the benefit of making it clear to students that lots of Chinese people won't make the distinction, even when trying to talk standard. But beyond informing students this, and playing them some audio to demonstrate it, I'm not sure what else could be done. Because all my studying was in China, and in the south, it was always made clear that the Chinese we heard in the classroom was different to what we'd hear in the street. I don't think hearing the two versions hindered my learning Chinese at all. But I can understand that might be different if, as WestTexas says, you'd only heard the standard s/sh for the first few years learning the language -- I wonder if it takes long to adapt?

What bugs me most is buying books that promise to teach you colloquial expressions that you wouldn't find in normal textbooks, only to discover that these expressions are not used in standard Chinese, or in the south, but only in (usually) Beijing. A bit like being told some Cockney rhyming slang is what you need to make your English more colloquial....

[WestTexas]

Really the point I'm trying to make is that it seems to me that distinctly pronouncing s/sh in normal speech for Chinese people seems to be the exception rather than the norm, so I don't understand why more learning material doesn't address this. I'm not advocating teaching foreigners not to pronounce s/sh correctly, but rather increasing the variety in the listening material which comes which books and stuff to include material where they don't differentiate.

[Silent]

I've to agree with Xiaocai. There is little point in bothering beginning students with all kinds of dialects etc. They have a hard enough time to learn the standard. The standard is supposed to be the most universally useful. So that's what students should focus on. Any modern motivated student will get some exposure to not too standard dialects through movies, tv shows, tourism, internet etc. I see no need to spend time on it during classes unless questions arise.

If you learn the standard language to a decent level and get exposed to a (minor) dialect you will be able to adapt quite quickly. If you're confused by all kind of accents and regional varieties early on big chance you will learn less (or even drop out) you won't be able to cope in any environment. In school I had trouble enough learning English without all kind of details about differences between all the dialects. I don't see how details about reginal differences would have helped me. Now with Chinese the same. Do I really need to learn all the varieties while I've already a hard time to cope with only one?

I'ld say learn the standard and when exposed to dialect you'll learn it fast enough.

[renzhe]

Really the point I'm trying to make is that it seems to me that distinctly pronouncing s/sh in normal speech for Chinese people seems to be the exception rather than the norm

This might seem so in rural north-east, but is not really true in general. North-east is known for pretty standard language in general, but the s/sh thing is common in some areas. Also, saying that almost nobody in the south pronounces sh is not correct. It depends a lot on the size of the city, the educational background of the person, the circle of friends, their first dialect, etc.

In addition to this, people run into a number of additional problems throughout China:

- merging -n and -ng

- mixing up l an n

- switching the third and fourth tone (listen to some Sichuan-accented speech, it will throw you off)

- exaggerated erhua

The s/sh distinction might be the most common issue, but it is hardly the only one. It is good to know about these things and practice understanding accented speech, but I agree with the others that it shouldn't be done too early. If you start learning all of these accents at once, you'll end up with something incomprehensible, and your own speech is likely to become incomprehensible in the process.

As a foreigner I learned Chinese for two years at a university in the US and did not know about this at all before coming to China.

This is a bit unusual. Perhaps you weren't trying to listen to enough native-level materials? I imagine that most learners run into this on their own very soon.

IMHO, it's not really up to textbooks to teach non-standard accents, though I would agree that they should point out some common accents like you suggest.

[jbradfor]

Perhaps you weren't trying to listen to enough native-level materials?

I'm pretty sure I didn't listen to ANY native material my first 2 years of study.

[Silent]

I'm pretty sure I didn't listen to ANY native material my first 2 years of study.

To be honest, I find that really strange unless you learned the language a long time ago and/or were forced (and unmotivated) to learn the language as part of a compulsory curriculum. And even then.....

[jbradfor]

Define "long time ago".... for me, it was 1988-1989.

Perhaps off-topic, for people with a more "modern" curriculum, what native material did you read / listen to / watch in your first two years?

[Silent]

"long time" is of course relative, but since the internet has become fairly common, say the last 10 years, it's easy to find native material in all mayor languages. There is no excuse to have no exposure. For all languages I ever studied (and many more) I've had exposure to native material well before I started my studies.

For Chinese I'm still well within my first year, but I watched several movies (taiwan and mainland, English and/or Chinese subs) and several episodes of Chinese soap series and a couple of lectures at the icourses websites. I also browse chinese websites on a regular basis. I failed at an attempt to read yu hua's to live (see the thread about the reading project) and attempted to read several bits and pieces of other (native and translated) books and articles. Reading 爱丽丝漫游奇境 now, it's a translation, but aimed at native children. Also in Chinatown (Amsterdam & The Hague) I hear a bit of Mandarin Chinese. Though my hometown has a fair amount of Chinese people most I encounter (toko, snackbar, restaurant, work) speak Cantonese. At the university however there are a number of mainland Chinese students.

My other languages, English, German and French I learned when no internet was around and as they were compulsory in highschool I was far less motivated. Nevertheless English exposure absolutely unavoidable as it's 'everywhere' specially on tv so watched many subtitled movies and series. German less common, but also there, tv was a definite source of native material, an occasional vacation to Germany/Austria and at the end of the second year I had to read a German book. I had least exposure to French but still, zapping on tv provides some exposure and also watching the news gives exposure. Sure, not very extensive, but avoiding it would have been hard.

[jkhsu]

Define "long time ago".... for me, it was 1988-1989.

In order to get native listening material at that time you'd only have these options if you lived in the USA:

1. Buy CDs, Tapes, and VHS from a Chinese record store

2. Watch limited Chinese TV if you happen to live in the few areas where Chinese TV is available.

what native material did you read / listen to / watch in your first two years?

I used YouTube quite a bit to access native listening material. I wish I knew about CCTV Learn Chinese.

[Guest realmayo]

switching the third and fourth tone (listen to some Sichuan-accented speech, it will throw you off)

Surely this is just how Sichuan dialect deals with tones?

I guess at the end of the day if the s/sh, z/zh differences are extremely difficult for people not exposed to them until later on, then you'd have to say they definitely need to be worked on at an earlier stage. Question is: are they that difficult? Or can you adapt after a bit of exposure?

[imron]

In my experience, it's pretty trivial to adapt after some exposure.

[Silent]

In order to get native listening material at that time you'd only have these options if you lived in the USA:

1. Buy CDs, Tapes, and VHS from a Chinese record store

2. Watch limited Chinese TV if you happen to live in the few areas where Chinese TV is available.

Or you just go to chinatown and listen to the people, you could take satellite tv, you could book a holiday to China or could get a Chinese au pair or.....even then plenty of opportunities existed. It was harder then today, but still many possibilities if you were willing to put in effort and money. Even internet was available at that time. My first internet experience was a few years earlier and around that time I started communicating on BBS systems. It took a couple of days for the messages to get across as most BBS systems polled only once a day but even then I had contacts with Asia (mainly HongKong and Japan)

[Hofmann]

My take: I can produce a non-alveolar-retroflex-differentiating accent if I speak Standard Mandarin. I cannot produce Standard Mandarin if I speak a non-alveolar-retroflex-differentiating accent. I learn Standard Mandarin first.

[jkhsu]

Or you just go to chinatown and listen to the people, you could take satellite tv, you could book a holiday to China or could get a Chinese au pair or.....even then plenty of opportunities existed.

Were you even in the USA at that time?

Not everyone had computers back then (I had a Commodore 64 with no modem connection) and we're talking about listening materials not just BBS. Also, not every place in the USA has Chinatowns or Chinese record stores; especially at that time. The chance of getting a Chinese au pair in the late 80s who speaks Mandarin (vs. Cantonese) is pretty low and who would do it just to learn Chinese? It's hard enough getting one now if you don't live in the more heavily concentrated Chinese areas.

Sure, you can spend the money on a trip to China or pay for satellite TV but most students don't have this kind of money (or want to spend it there when they just started learning Chinese). The point is, it is completely reasonable that a student may not have access to native Mandarin listening materials in the USA around 1988-89 timeframe. I don't see why this is an issue that you need to disagree with, especially if you didn't live here at the time.

[jbradfor]

Or you just go to chinatown and listen to the people

They pretty much all spoke Cantonese at that time. [sF Chinatown]

you could book a holiday to China or could get a Chinese au pair or.

I was 20 at the time and not married.... Getting a Chinese mail order bride would be a better suggestion. And I didn't quite have the funds for a holiday to China.

even then plenty of opportunities existed.

Actually, I agree with you that some opportunities existed. [Just not your examples.] While the WWW makes it much easier (I disagree that the internet would help to any substantial extent, the WWW would, and keep in mind that HTML wasn't developed until 1990), with a fair amount of effort I could have. I just didn't think of doing so, I was plenty busy already.

To be honest, though (and to maybe bring this back on topic), for the first two years I think my time was better spent with a textbook. On one hand it would have been nice to be warned about different accents... OTOH, it was already hard enough to learn to understand one accent, knowing what was ahead might have been too demotivating.

[WestTexas]

I'm pretty sure I didn't listen to ANY native material my first 2 years of study

I was exactly the same. I don't think this is strange at all if you are not studying in China or living in China. I was not studying Chinese as a Chinese major, but as a foreign language for my liberal arts degree. We did not do any listening to native material as part of the course. In addition, I was very busy at the time with other things and had enough trouble keeping up with the basic coursework and vocabulary. The idea to go online and listen to native material never occurred to me, as I simply didn't have time.

In my experience, it's pretty trivial to adapt after some exposure.

Generally if it's in context as part of a longer conversation I will understand it, but if it's just one or two words or a very short sentence by itself it throws me off and I have to think about it. When I first got here, however, it really messed with me.

This might seem so in rural north-east, but is not really true in general. North-east is known for pretty standard language in general, but the s/sh thing is common in some areas. Also, saying that almost nobody in the south pronounces sh is not correct. It depends a lot on the size of the city, the educational background of the person, the circle of friends, their first dialect, etc.

To me it seems like there are plenty of people who don't make the distinction. I don't have any statistics or anything on this, but that has been my experience. For example, last year I taught at a first-tier university in Shenyang, so my students and colleagues were 'well-educated', and I would say at least half of them didn't make the distinction when speaking among themselves. In addition, I've traveled to around a dozen different provinces and talked to many different people, and in my experience having a clean s/sh distinction is the exception rather than the norm.