Xunzi

[madizi]

http://chinese-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3519

Bchao mentioned in discussion above that he likes Xunzi. Could you please tell us something more about Xunzi and/or your views about his philosophy?

I don't agree with Xunzi that people are born bad, neither agree with Mengzi (Mencius) that people are born good. I think that people become good AND bad through education and socialization. So, every human is both, good and bad. What's good and what's bad depends on every single culture's customs and laws.

[bhchao]

Xunzi was a "hard" Confucian whose life coincided with the last 100 years of the Warring States era. His observations of the conflict between the seven Warring States may have shaped his philosophy of the nature of men.

According to Xunzi, human beings were born "bad" and tend to follow their own emotional desires throughout life. If unchecked, these emotional or "irrational" desires can get out of control and cause adverse effects towards society as well as themselves. It is man's natural desire to seek profit, power, or love. When these desires turn into actions, and these actions exceed the principles of Confucian ritual and the norms set by society, men become criminals.

Both 荀子 and 孟子(Mencius) believed that man has the ability to be good, whether it came naturally from birth or through one's own initiative. But the two men differed in the development of one's morality. Unlike 荀子, 孟子 believed that one's morality had to come straight from the heart, rather than from the state. According to 孟子, one should carry the simple naivete and goodness that he or she was born with, and carry it through into adulthood.

Xunzi differed with this. He believed that men are dictated by their emotional state of mind and their natural inclinations. For example, a father or mother tells a son to do something. The son's first initial, natural reaction is not wanting to do it. Where does this son gain the morality or thought processes that tell him "I need to do this and obey my parents?" It is through education and guidance which he accumulates that allows him to fulfill this request. This education can be given to him by a separate teacher, his parents, or his own initiatives for self-cultivation

Therefore, it is only through cultivation and learning (teacher-taught and self-taught) that allows human beings to abide by social norms. In Xunzi's day, these social norms translate into Confucian ritual principle. In order to survive, the state must establish standards and moral principles that contain people's behavior. This individual teacher is the "state" or its representative. He teaches in the interest of the state and the common good.

The two important ritual principles according to Xunzi that must be taught by the "state" are courtesy in interpersonal relations and controlling one's emotional or "irrational" desires before they produce negative results.

Many people may view Xunzi as the founder of Legalism. This is untrue. Undoubtedly he was a Confucian, albeit more "harder" (I would say realistic) than Mencius or Confucius himself. It's just that his two most famous pupils, 韓非 and 李斯, took his teachings and altered it significantly. Unlike Xunzi, those two believe that men's "bad" nature can never be changed. It is through the abiding of government laws and the enforcement of punishments that allow man to accumulate virtue. This became the School of 法家

As a theoretician, 韓非 was more moderate and flexible in his views of the the application of law. He was later poisoned by 李斯. As the implementor,李斯 took it to the extreme and helped Qin Shi Huang establish harsh, draconian punishments.

I think one's predisposition towards 孟子 or 荀子 is likely to be influenced by one's experiences and the political dynamics of the world one lives in. For example during the Cold War, most academic professors and Establishment intellectuals in the Western world preferred 荀子 over 孟子, because of interactions with the former Soviet Union and the need to contain communism.