Learning classical Chinese at the same time as modern Mandarin

[lwstl4ke]

hey, my course at university allows me to take a module in Classical Chinese reading, which would involve learning a whole new set of characters, as I'm still only 12 months into my study of simplified characters, would this become confusing or would you say that it is easy to distinguish between classical and simplified characters and not confuse them?

[knickherboots]

When I studied Chinese, simplified characters were introduced about a year after complex characters, and they were relatively easy to learn. It should only be a bit more difficult to go the other way. We were given a list of radicals with their simplified and complex forms side-by-side and, I think, a list of the simplfied forms of the complex characters we had learned to that point. That was basically enough for us to be familiar with both forms as we continued to study. Similar lists must be out there. (Some language texts include both forms in the index, but I think yours probably don't.) It might be a little more difficult for you because you won't be spoonfed the different character forms, as I was. On a related topic, because of differences in grammar and usage, Classical Chinese only really starts to "pay off" for learning modern Chinese when you reach a rather high level of fluency with the language. But, if you have the energy and interest to learn Classical for its own sake, I'd say go for it.

[imron]

Are you sure you'll be using traditional characters for learning classical chinese? It's possible to learn classical chinese with simplified characters, as the major differences between modern and classical Chinese are grammar and vocab related. The character set that is used is not so important, and it could well be that the course will be on classical chinese, but using simplified characters.

[Hofmann]

I suspect some terminology confusion. My university doesn't allow Classical before 3 years of Mandarin.

[Hugh]

yeah I think a lot of people seem to get this confused.

simplified / traditional: two different character sets

classical Chinese: a written Chinese language used for thousands of years

We started studying Classical at the same time as Mandarin. We have to study simplified and traditional characters anyway, so that wasn't an issue.

As others have said, a lot of people study Classical Chinese in simplified characters. Classical Chinese texts were originally written in traditional characters, though.

[rezaf]

It can be written in simplified characters but it may cause some confusion as in some cases they reduced some unrelated characters into one character. It might not affect modern Mandarin but those characters were useful back then. Also I think sometimes simplified characters cause even more confusion in 錯別字。

[OneEye]

I suspect some terminology confusion. My university doesn't allow Classical before 3 years of Mandarin.

Yeah, but that depends entirely on the university. Some start you on Classical from the beginning, and some require you to wait until you've reached a certain level. Some don't require it, and some don't even have it, unfortunately.

[yellowpower]

classical chinese is like a 'different' language, much like old English used during Shakespeare's time, there are similarities with modern chinese but some obvious differences like words which are no longer in use or have taken additional /new meanings, etc. As with many other languages that are around, many words have variations in vocabulary usage , sentence structure, grammar, and meaning depending on the time period, and studying classical chinese covers some aspect of this evolvement/development of the language e.g. some words/grammar in the Song dynasty changed or expanded say during the Tang dynasty.

studying classical chinese can help in understanding the more formal speech and written aspects of Chinese, e.g. newspaper/creative writing, etc. While it's two different things, it's a bit like studying Latin and knowing how English evolved. So at times it's learning very specific and obslete meaning of words, grammar, etc in order to read old manuscripts for correct meaning and interpretation for specific time periods.

Your teacher should be able to advise if you have enough Chinese to cope with studying classical chinese. I think of classical chinese as a history thumprint of its development over time.

Have fun with it.

[Hofmann]

Anyway, my take on it is just like any case of someone wanting to learn two languages: Learn one after another. All else being equal, I'd recommend Classical first, but it isn't equal, because learning materials for Mandarin are more abundant and assume you have no knowledge of Classical. Learning materials for Classical sometimes assume knowledge of Mandarin.

[jbradfor]

Interesting..... why do you recommend Classical first?

To me, a bit motivator of learning a language is to be able to use it in the real world. I would think one would lose that motivation by learning Classical first.

And what about learning spoken? Would you recommend not learning to speak until after one has learned to read Classical?

[Hofmann]

Basically, this is the natural order in which a story is told. It's simpler to say "This happened, and then that happened" than to say "This happened, and before this, that happened." Assuming one has to learn both, and that learning one will help learning the other, my gut feeling is that Classical will help Mandarin more than Mandarin helps Classical.

And then, if things are not equal, teachers and learning materials generally have more BS in Mandarin than in Classical. Knowledge of Classical Chinese will help one avoid falling victim to it. For example, lots of (non-university-level) Mandarin teachers tend to describe Classical Chinese as something strange, that is difficult to read, that nobody uses anymore. (What many Chinese speakers/teachers/learners overlook is that Classical Chinese may be one of somebody's native languages. To describe it in this way is degrading.)

Spoken language: In a rush to talk to people? Then learn a live language first. If not, use whatever pronunciation you want for the Chinese characters (A Chinese language is recommended, because of 形聲字), but I would honestly recommend using Middle Chinese pronunciation. ("But nobody would understand." Yeah well nobody understands Classical using Mandarin pronunciation either.) Then if one wants to learn some of its descendants, i.e. anything but Min, there is that foundation on which one can apply rules, in order to get the modern phonology 90% of the time.

[jiangping]

One reason for learning some modern Chinese before classical is that you'll have access to a much greater range of resources, rather than having to stick to the limited selection of primers in English. Also, since classical is general much more difficult to learn than modern, I can see the logic in starting to tackle it when you've already got a grip of things like characters and Mandarin pronunciation. (Sure, there's no linguistic reason to favour Mandarin pronunciation over another dialect or even Middle Chinese, but just for the sake of convention in teaching and textbooks it makes things easier.)

That said, I started both at the same time and didn't have any particular problems. I really think it depends on your own interests/curriculum.

[paperbagprince23]

Going with what everyone else said, it is probably a class in which classical Chinese text are written with simplified characters.

And again, going with the flow, when I started to learn Classical Chinese, I saw a major improvement on my usage and memorization of 成语， after about only a semester of studying, I was able to see where various 成语 had came from, and when I came across a new one, I was often able to use the knowledge I had learned in the Classical Chinese course to figure it out.