Mandarin Training Center, National Taiwan Normal University

[OneEye]

Hanyu pinyin is used in all the textbooks at MTC that I've seen. If you start from scratch then you're taught bopomofo, but most people also learn pinyin at that stage too. Sometimes the teacher will ask at the beginning of the term if students would prefer one over the other, but every class I've been in has used pinyin.

That being said, I would strongly recommend learning bopomofo. At least learn to read it, which takes very little effort. It comes in very handy in Taiwan, not least of which because it will allow you to read the 國語日報, which has bopomofo pronunciation beside every single character. You'll also see it on signs sometimes, like at the milk tea shop I was at the other day which sold 百香ㄉㄨㄞ ㄉㄨㄞ (duāi duāi). Duāi is an onomatopoeia for elasticy things, like the 珍珠 and other stuff in the tea. It will also come in handy if you ever have to type Chinese on one of MTC's computers. If you go to the zoo, there is bopomofo on all the signs next to the animal names, so little kids and foreigners know how to pronounce them. Etc.

Edit: Also, it will reduce confusion when you ask someone how to pronounce a character and they say "Zhōng. Zhī wū ēng. Zhōng." That's because if you convert each sign directly into pinyin, it's zhuēng (ㄓㄨㄥ). Don't ask me why.

[etm001]

Hi,

I did not learn bopomofo before coming to Taiwan, and I have yet to teach it to myself; I believe this to be true for the other students in my current class. (As OneEye noted, if you start at the very beginning level, then you will be taught bopomofo, but I did not start at that level).

That said, I agree with OneEye - it takes little effort to learn bopomofo, and being in Taiwan, it can only help to know it, because:

• All Taiwanese will know bopomofo (setting aside non-Mandarin speakers), but not all will know pinyin (I don't believe pinyin is taught in Taiwanese schools).
  
• As OneEye noted above, there will be occasions where you will not know how to pronounce a word, but the bopomofo will be provided.
  
• I have a few friends who, after learning bopomofo, say that they prefer it over pinyin for text input.
  
• It will be MUCH easier to use the MTC computers if you know bopomofo.
  

On that last point (MTC computer text input): I had to use the computer lab once, and swore I never would again because it was so frustrating to use the pinyin IME that was installed. Party this was due to my inexperience (I have a Mac and use the (newly updated) OS X pinyin input editor, or I use IMKQIM), and partly because (I think) the pinyin IME that they have installed is a bit old, and/or it just plains stinks. (Obviously I have a strong opinion about this).

I would like to balance my comments above and re-iterate that I do not know bopomofo, and I don't believe it has made a material difference in my daily life. If your time is limited and you want to do the one thing that will help you the most in coming to Taiwan, then I would suggest getting up to speed on traditional characters, as that will have the largest and most immediate impact on your life here (assuming you've only been taught simplified characters).

So having said all that...I think I'm going to teach myself bopomofo during my upcoming school break, just to know what I'm missing, lol. I'll let you know the results if you are interested.

[kimmieting]

Hi, I'm Malaysian and have am studying at Mtc right now,have u already started your semester?

[cpsm]

Thanks for your answers, OneEye and etm001. I'll try to familiarize myself with some bopomofo then. Regarding traditional characters- is there an option to just learn simplified in class? Then again, would it be possible to get around Taiwan without knowing traditional characters (eg. Reading signs, menu, etc)?

kimmie- I'm still in Kl. Hoping to come for the spring term next year. How long will you be in Taiwan for? Can you give me your email add? I don't have enough posts to send you a direct message.

[OneEye]

Then again, would it be possible to get around Taiwan without knowing traditional characters (eg. Reading signs, menu, etc)?

I'm always surprised by this question. Of course the answer is no. The good news is that it's not as hard a transition as you might think.

[etm001]

Hi,

I'll re-iterate what what OneEye said (seems like I'm always doing that, lol): transitioning to traditional characters is not so hard. I would say that I adapted reasonably well by the end of the second week of class. Perhaps it benefited me slightly that I was within the beginner range of Chinese learning, and I did not have an extensive vocabulary. As I noted in a posting earlier in this thread, your MTC placement test will use traditional characters, so if you want to score well on that test, then it's best to learn them before coming to Taiwan.

Although this thread is not the place to discuss the pros/cons of learning traditional vs. simplified Chinese characters, I will say that after three months of study, I'm firmly in the camp that learning traditional characters is highly worthwhile (although there are times, such as when I'm writing a 20+ stroke character, that I wish I was learning simplified. If you want to have some fun, try writing the traditional characters for "turtle" or "depression"

[cpsm]

Alrighty then, to my flashcards I go

Just out of curiosity though, are you able to read simplified texts easily after learning traditional characters at MTC?

Most of the Chinese media in my country is in simplified... so am wondering how that would work out when I get back.

Also, do any of you know how long it takes for MTC to reply once you have sent in your application?

Thanks for all your input.

[imron]

There are only around 500 characters that are significantly different between Simplified and Traditional (see here), the rest are either simplified in a standard manner 言 to 讠 etc, or are identical. Learning them won't affect your ability to read Simplified. For example "THIS IS ONE WAY OF WRITING", "this is another way of writing", despite the fact that uppercase and lowercase letters mostly look different, learning one doesn't mean that you'll forget the other. Same goes for Traditional and Simplified, which is actually no where near as big a deal as many people make out. Once you know one, learning the other is relatively straightforward. I've never learnt Traditional, but can read them more or less fine (albeit more slowly than Simplified due to lack of exposure).

[etm001]

Hi,

In regards to how long it takes MTC to reply: I think I waited ~4 weeks after sending in my application, then I wrote an email to the admissions office asking when I could expect a response. They replied telling me that I had been accepted, and ~2-3 weeks later I received my acceptance letter.

As for being able to read simplified characters: at the moment I use a browser plug-in that converts simplified to traditional characters. At some point I'll sit down and learn the 500 significantly different characters (as noted by imron), and the standard substitutions (言 to 讠, although I know many just from reading simplified texts, it's not hard to figure out). I think I'm going to wait for my vocabulary to be a bit large before I spend much time on this, though.

[OneEye]

Same goes for Traditional and Simplified, which is actually no where near as big a deal as many people make out. Once you know one, learning the other is relatively straightforward. I've never learnt Traditional, but can read them more or less fine (albeit more slowly than Simplified due to lack of exposure).

This. Except I'm more comfortable with traditional. I'm fairly slow at reading simplified because I've done very little of it, but I can read it just fine. I'll be reading more of it during the next few years so I'm sure it will get easier, though probably never as easy as traditional.

As for writing complicated traditional characters, there will come a point that it's easier. 龜 and 鬱 aren't such a big deal once you've written them enough times, especially if you learn what sorts of shortcuts are acceptable in handwriting (I'd say wait on that until you can write well in regular script though).

[cpsm]

Good to know that it is possible to switch between characters even with a traditional foundation.

Based on etm001's experience, the application processes takes about 1 1/2 to 2 months... I suppose I should get my application sent in soon then!

Thank you all for your feedback

[etm001]

Hi all,

Having completed a full semester at MTC, I thought I would give an update on my experiences thus far.

TL;DR Version

• MTC provides solid Chinese language instruction, and is a good overall value. I recommend it to anyone, with just a few caveats.
  
• Most of the criticism I have of MTC are equally applicable to any school and/or foreign language instruction.
  
• The quality of your experience is highly dependent on the quality of your teacher, and to a lesser extent your classmates (and of course, your own motivation and focus).
  
• Whether you take the regular MTC course or the intensive course, you will learn a lot of Chinese, faster than you ever could back home.
  
• The MTC facilities and teaching methods are straight-forward, "no frills", and decidedly low high tech.
  
• Do your best to avoid creating an "English bubble" around yourself. Force yourself to interact with people in Chinese.
  
• Be proactive and supplement your MTC studies with other learning materials (e.g., Chinese books, movies, TV, Taiwanese friends, etc.)
  

Pace and Structure (Intensive Course)

We completed a chapter roughly every four days days. The classroom instruction generally followed this pattern:

• Day 1
  
  • Review new vocabulary. Practice speaking each word and using them in example sentences.
    

  [*]Day 2

  • First dictation quiz (聽寫): the teacher speaks a sentence, the students must write the sentence in Chinese. Covers any of the words in the first half of the chapter's vocabulary. Typically 5-6 sentences were spoken by the teacher.
    
  • Review new grammar. Practice new grammar both orally and in writing, using examples from the book and supplemental examples provided by the teacher.
    

  [*]Day 3

  • Second dictation quiz (聽寫).
    
  • Continue grammar review and practice.
    
  • Oral quiz (口試):typically student meets with teacher one-on-one. Teacher asks the student questions based on the chapter's vocabulary and grammar. Often a list of topics/questions is provided in advance.
    

  [*]Day 4

  • Review the chapter dialogues(對話) and other narratives: watch the dialogue acted out on the accompanying PAVC DVD; read the dialogues out loud as a class; practice speaking the dialogue with a classmate, etc.
    
  • Final review of chapter materials.
    
  • Chapter test (考試): included any of the following: listening comprehension; fill-in-the-blanks; true/false; reading comprehension; re-order a scrambled Chinese sentence; write the correct tone for each word; write short responses/answers.
    

Note: all of the teachers at MTC must adhere to the same pace and use the same core teaching materials. That said, each teacher has some level of discretion as to what supplemental materials they use (if any), as well how to structure quizzes and tests. The above reflects my teacher's preferred methods; others may differ.

Taking the MTC intensive course is definitely like drinking from a fire hose: you will be taught a lot of Chinese at a rather fast pace. Whether the pace is too fast (or too slow, but I doubt many would find it too slow) is subjective, but if you are a dedicated student and focused, then you should do just fine. That said, I have friends who initially took the intensive class, then switched to the regular class, and were happier for it (and felt that they learned and/or retained Chinese better at the slower pace).

As a reference: when I started at MTC, I was placed in PAVC Book One, Chapter Six, and I am now in PAVC Book Three, Chapter Two. This is a total of 21 chapters since early September, incorporating ~800 vocabulary words (at least by counting the total number of flashcards I have in Pleco, although not every word is truly unique (e.g., PAVC presents"奇怪" and "怪" as separate words); I have no idea how to count the different grammar concepts I've learned since starting at MTC. Having said all that, I would give you this one piece of advice:

• Don't worry if you can't recall from memory every word and/or grammar pattern you learn. If you set this as your goal, then I think you might spend too much time "lost in the weeds" trying to remember every nook and cranny of the Chinese you've learned thus far, instead of absorbing and/or using the language on a higher level.
  

My gut feeling is that I remember 70-80% of the vocabulary and/or grammar I've learned so far. For the other 20-30%, it's not so much that I've completely forgotten it, but it's more like having something on the tip of my tongue that I can almost-but-not-quite recall clearly.

Extra Curricular Activities (Mid-term and Final)

Twice during the semester the class took a field trip. The first was to the zoo (動物園), the second to visit Yingge (鶯歌). On the day of the field trip, the teacher provided a set of questions to which the students were expected to find answers. After the field trip was over, each student had to prepare a written report（報告) on 5-6 topics related to the field trip. Each student also had to create a PowerPoint presentation and orally present their report to the class; each presentation was recorded. The combined written report and oral presentation for each field trip served as the student's mid-term and final.

Although the field trips were generally fun (although a bit tiring by the day's end), having to give an oral presentation in Chinese (while being recorded) was more than a little bit stressful!

Advancing to the Next Level

In order advance to the next level, you will need to take a computer-based placement test and receive a passing score. The placement test is a version of the "Steering Committee for the Test of Proficiency - Huayu", Taiwan's national test of Chinese proficiency for foreign language learners. It's commonly referred to as the TOP test. You must receive a passing score in order to advance to the next level at MTC, regardless of your classroom grades. (However, if you do not pass the TOP test, but your grades are good, then you may advance to the next level upon approval by your teacher).

My only thoughts are as follows:

• Take as many practice TOP tests as possible. Practice early and practice often.
  
• If you are a typical foreign language learner, then listening comprehension will be harder than reading comprehension.
  
• I found the font used by the TOP test to be very hard to read (as did others in my class. This may actually have been an issue caused by the configuration of the fonts and/or resolution on the MTC computers).
  

Quality of Instruction

Simply put, I had a fantastic teacher. She clearly had a wealth of teaching experience and knew the course materials inside and out. She consistently provided supplemental materials that went beyond those in the PAVC textbook. There was never a dull moment in the class and she did a great job of keeping us engaged (which is not easy to do by the start of the third hour of a three hour class). A couple more thoughts:

• I think I really lucked out in getting her as a teacher. My teacher this semester is not nearly as good (and my classmates who ended up with different teachers generally agree), and whenever I mention my old teacher's name to other MTC staff, they all acknowledge her as being one of the best. (Sadly for us my old teacher decided to take an extended vacation and is not currently teaching).
  
• She drove us pretty hard, making the class more challenging and assigning a fair amount of homework each night. (This is a good thing, not a criticism).
  

Instructional Materials

MTC uses the PAVC textbook and accompanying workbook. The books are a bit dated (the accompanying DVD videos are laughably bad, due to how long ago they were shot), but overall they succeed where it's most important: presenting the foundation of Chinese vocabulary and grammar. Some highlights (based on books 1 and 2):

• 20-25 new vocabulary words per chapter (increasing to 30-35 in PAVC book 3), with usage examples (including English translation).
  
• 1-3 new grammar concepts per chapter (some concepts, such as the "把" construction, merit an entire chapter).
  
• 2 short Chinese dialogues (with accompanying English translation).
  
• Later chapters often have an additional narrative, such as a short story (with English translation).
  

Note: starting in PAVC book 3, English translations are not provided for the dialogues, narratives, or vocabulary example sentences.

As far as grammar goes, the PAVC approach is generally:

• Provide a definition of the grammar structure (ex: "N1 (不) 跟 N2 （不) 一樣(SV)"). For a more complex grammar topic, additional explanation, in English, may be provided.
  
• Provide several "master" Chinese sentences (with English translations) that follow the new structure.
  
• Provide a number of example sentences showing additional usages and variations of the grammar structure (with no English translation).
  

Note: this is the approach in PAVC books 1 and 2. It changes a bit in PAVC book 3.

Overall this approach works (and is roughly consistent with other textbooks I've seen), although at times it feels a bit dry, and it's certainly not a "sexy" way to learn Chinese. The English explanations of the Chinese grammar are usually informative, although at times they are a bit stiff (i.e., incorporating linguistic/grammatical terms that some will find off putting). There are places were I felt the explanations and/or example usage sentences were lacking, as if the PAVC authors thought that the student can (or should) be able to figure it out on their own from the examples provided (especially several of the latter chapters in PAVC book two; this is when having a good teacher can really make a difference).

Classroom Technology

In short, there isn't any technology used in the classroom. Some teachers may use PowerPoint to supplement their instruction, but that's about it. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? I guess that depends on your perspective. While I do believe that technology can enhance the learning process, I'm not sure whether, at the end of the day, extensive use of technology in the classroom is demonstrably better than slogging your way through the material with a paper and pencil. Your mileage may vary.

MTC Facilities

Not too much to say. All MTC facilities are in the Bo-ai building (博愛樓), which is a bit drab and a little shabby around the edges (like a lot of buildings in Taipei). The classrooms are small, typically comprised of two abutting tables that provide seating for about eight students. Each classroom has a whiteboard, blackboard (although I've never seen one used), and a projector.

The Bo-ai building has a "library"on the 7th floor, but I think it's a stretch to call it a library - it's really more just a place for studying (I don't think I've ever seen a student check out a book). MTC also provides also a computer lab, language lab, and a student study/break room (none of which I've used, so I can't comment on them).

It's also worth noting that MTC students are not full-fledge students of ShiDa, and are not entitled to use of all the ShiDa facilities (as far as I understand, but I could be wrong). That said, I've used the ShiDa library (it's right across from the Bo-ai building) and a few other resources, and no one ever seemed to care.

Oh, and one more thing: MTC has replaced two of the four elevators in the Bo-ai building, and the upgrades to the remaining two should be completed within the next two months. For anyone who has ever had to endure the old elevators, then you know how truly exciting this is.

Final Thoughts

Overall, I've had a good experience at MTC, and I would definitely recommend attending if you want to gain proficiency in Chinese as quickly as possible. It's a good value for the money (much cheaper than the program at NTU, and orders of magnitude cheaper than the summer program at Middlebury College). While the facilities and teaching methods might sometimes feel dated, overall they serve the main objective (i.e., learning Chinese) perfectly well. My biggest caution to anyone attending MTC is simply this: your experience is directly related to the quality of your instructor. If you have a great instructor (like I did), then you will (or should) have a good learning experience. If you have a mediocre instructor, then you will probably be a bit disappointed. (Note: this is not criticism specific to MTC per se, and it holds true of any school and/or teacher anywhere in the world).

A few last thoughts:

• Even through you are attending MTC each day and living in Taipei, it's still possible (and quite easy) to create an "English bubble" around yourself. You have to push yourself to engage with Taiwanese people and speak Chinese in your everyday life. Sometimes this will be frustrating and/or nerve-wracking, but in the long run it's worth it.
  
• Other ways to supplement your MTC studies:
  
  • Go to the children's section of the Eslite bookstore. Browse the books until you find one where you can understand about 60-70% of the words. I've had great success (and a lot of fun) reading a series of science books aimed at 7-10 year olds.
    
  • Although I primarily use Pleco for dictionary lookups, I've found a few others to be helpful as well:
    
    • "Illustrated Chinese-English Dictionary, Newly Revised Edition". Really helpful when needing to quickly learn/review words related to daily life. You can find this book in the Lucky Bookstore across from MTC, or at Eslite bookstore.
      
    • "Longman Chinese-English Visual Dictionary of Chinese Culture". Overkill for a beginning student, but this dictionary has a mind-boggling number of items, all categorized and with a focus on items found in Chinese life and culture. (This dictionary is hard to find).
      
    • "DK Mandarin Chinese-English Visual Bilingual Dictionary". Filled to the brim with items from daily life, with clear, color photos. (This dictionary is heavily focused on western items.)
      

Note: the Longman and DK dictionaries contain simplified characters and have a mainland China focus in regards to vocabulary, so keep that in mind when living and studying in Taiwan. (The Illustrated Chinese-English Dictionary" contains both traditional and simplified characters, with both mainland China and Taiwanese vocabulary preferences).

• Pick a few Taiwanese TV series and watch them. They'll all have Chinese subtitles, so you can read the subtitles while you listen, which helps. I personally don't try to understand everything - I just enjoy the show and try to extract a handful of key words or phrases to use in my daily life (often words or usage patterns not given in the PAVC textbook. Also, if you don't have cable in Taiwan, then www.sugoideas.com is a good starting point for finding Taiwanese shows online).
  
• Hang out with your classmates and practice speaking Chinese with them. Although they are not native speakers, because they are at your same learning level, you may actually find chatting with them to be more fun, and perhaps a more stress-free way to practice Chinese (as opposed to practicing with a native speaker, or having to speak Chinese on-demand, such as when ordering food, etc.)
  
• Get a language exchange partner with a native Chinese speaker. Better yet, get two or three - you can never have too much practice speaking and listening.
  
• Make friends with Taiwanese people and speak Chinese to them as much as possible.
  
• Get yourself a Taiwanese girlfriend or boyfriend. This can be an excellent way to learn Chinese (especially day-to-day Chinese).
  
  • Note: if you are single and a new Chinese learner, and are looking for a Taiwanese girlfriend/boyfriend, then more likely than not you are only going to be able to meet someone who also speaks English (because your Chinese will be very limited). That's OK, but you might fall into the "English bubble" with them. Take every opportunity you can to speak Chinese to them, even it's only to say "Yes, I like this" or "I need to go to the bathroom". Ask them to do the same with you. You'll be surprised how much you will learn from even these small interactions in Chinese.
    

Well, as always I ended up writing a lot more than I had planned on. Hope it helps!

[roddy]

Fantastic write-up.

[Daan]

Great job! Thanks.

Oh, and one more thing: MTC has replaced two of the four elevators in the Bo-ai building, and the upgrades to the remaining two should be completed within the next two months. For anyone who has ever had to endure the old elevators, then you know how truly exciting this is.

Ah. Yes, those elevators. We'll all miss the old ones terribly, won't we?

[rmpalpha]

I'm considering the MTC as an option for studying Chinese in Taiwan this upcoming summer. It is somewhat cheaper than my hiring a private tutor for one-on-one lessons (which is what I did last summer). My concern, though, is that I wouldn't benefit very much from the classes themselves since I'm deaf and can't follow lectures and the like. However, the set curriculum and course pace as well as having actual classmates are all quite attractive features to me, so I'm debating the two options.

OneEye or etm001, do you have any thoughts on this?

[OneEye]

I'm afraid I couldn't even begin to help you there. I'd recommend emailing the office about it.

[Meng Lelan]

From my experience at Middlebury (and maybe OneEye would think the same of his school there too), the classroom environment is an extremely auditory-verbal experience. If I were you, if it is the total classroom experience that you are looking for, then I would be wanting a Chinese sign language interpreter for the classes at MTC. Have you ever had CART (computer assisted transcribing)? If CART were available in Chinese that would really be something useful, but I don't know if that is available in Taiwan.

[etm001]

Hi rmpalpha,

I read the write-up of your trip to Taiwan, and I have to say, it sounds like a really great experience, in large part due to the fact that you were able to tailor your experience to your learning goal/needs (and it sounds like your teacher was great too). It almost makes me want to leave the MTC classroom environment and switch to one-on-one tutoring exclusively...

....but in the end I'm sticking with MTC for now (even though I'm disappointed with my current teacher) for some of the reasons you mentioned: the pace of learning, the verbal/aural interaction in the classroom, and the relationships I have made with my classmates (more so with classmates from last semester than the current one).

My gut feeling: the best bang-for-your-buck is probably one-on-one tutoring, because verbal/aural interaction is a core component of the classroom experience, and as you've already noted, this type of interaction is of limited use/interest to you. I do recognize, however, that one-one-one tutoring does not afford the opportunity to build relationships with classmates, although from your previous post, it sounds like you had no problem engaging with people and building relationships while in Taiwan.

Good luck!

[aushaun]

Thanks to OneEye, etm001 and others for the fantastic writeups on MTC - very informative. I'll be heading there for the Spring semester in Feb/March this year and am quite nervous/excited.

Would any of you recommend the use of a voice recorder in classes? I'm looking at one of the LiveScribe pens to keep track of my notes and listen over classes - iPhone could work but my experiences with using them in meetings hasn't been great.

Thanks again all! Hope I can also provide some feedback and advice once I arrive in Taipei.

[OneEye]

I've tried recording lessons before, but I've found that I never go back to review them. I'd say before you spend money on a voice recorder, use your phone and see if you think it's actually worth the money to get one.

Good luck!