Filling in missing vocabulary

[Olle Linge]

Ever since I left the intermediate level I've felt that there is an ever increasing problem. Sure, I keep on learning more words since I read more and more advanced texts, but I also know that this isn't necessarily the way to go. There might simply be lots of words that I don't know which aren't considered advanced. I've tried to tackle this in two ways:

• Huge exposure (reading, listening)
  
• Going through word lists
  

I feel that both have contributed quite a lot and that I have a much more solid vocabulary now than I did a couple of years ago. Still, I feel that this is an overlooked problem. There seems to be a tendency to rush for more advanced vocabulary while leaving big holes in more fundamental areas. This can be seen in quite a number of textbooks, which start to add fairly complicated words even though the learner obviously lacks vocabulary that would be much more useful.

I've written more about this problem and how I think it can be overcome here: Mapping the terra incognita of vocabulary.

So, the background being over and done with, this is what I want to ask:

• Am I right in thinking that this is a general problem?
  
• Are there any other solutions?
  
• Have I overlooked something else?
  

[skylee]

I have deleted my post as I don't think you need my input.

[Olle Linge]

Hm... Well, I didn't write this primarily because I think that I need help with this, but because I think it's an interesting problem. I'm teaching Chinese as well as learning it myself and therefore I want to broaden my horizons and not only focus on what I'm doing myself. So if you had anything you think might have been helpful to other people, why not post it? I mean, I introduced this as something I have experienced myself simply because that's why I wrote the article in the first place. However, that's not the same as knowing that it's a universal problem or that I've thought of the best solution (if indeed there is such a thing).

[Silent]

There seems to be a tendency to rush for more advanced vocabulary while leaving big holes in more fundamental areas. This can be seen in quite a number of textbooks, which start to add fairly complicated words even though the learner obviously lacks vocabulary that would be much more useful.

Why is this a bad thing? I feel it's better to be able to talk about various subjects then it is to know 10 words for the same thing, no matter how basic the individual words are. Sure it's a matter of finding a balance as 10 words for the same thing can be very usefull if they are highfrequency for understanding. For speaking at a relatively basic level their is no need to be able to express urgency in 10 shades of urgency.

Am I right in thinking that this is a general problem?

I tend to say no. This is no real problem unless your actual exposure is different from the intended use. In the early stages of language learning this is absolutely an issue, but I think unavoidable. At advanced level I expect you to use the language already pretty much for the intended use. If it's important you will come across it naturally. If you don't come across the words they're not important for you.

Have I overlooked something else?

I think you overlooked that the vocabulary used is strongly dependent on the context. The real basic stuff is off course always relevant to know but the more advanced you get the more specific the vocabulary becomes. If you're not interested in art their is no use in knowing a wide array of brushstrokes and more rare vocabulary about cars may be far more relevant for you. Frequency lists strongly differ depending on the source of the material. Not all sources have the same relevance for you. I think HSK is not truely frequency based and consequently it's a bit arbitrary anyway. I've seen doubts about the usefulness of the HSK vocabulary, specially at the higher levels, expressed.

Are there any other solutions?

I think the solution is to expose yourself while studying as much as possible to the environment where you intend to use your chinese. If you intend to use it in an office environment watch office based soaps rather then teenage love stories or historic drama. You may end up with a less varied but a for you more useful vocabulary. Don't mind the gap between some arbitrary list and your own vocabulary. Key is to learn vocabulary that is useful for you, not vocabulary that is average or someone has picked 'randomly'.

The way I go now is analyse (reading) material, learn the words with the highest frequency in that material and words a little below the highest frequency on more arbitrary, fairly random criteria such as the impression they keep popping up, just seem useful and/or because they're in HSK

[Olle Linge]

Why is this a bad thing? I feel it's better to be able to talk about various subjects then it is to know 10 words for the same thing.

Even though I realise that near synonyms are part of the gaps people have, that wasn't really what I was thinking about. I agree with you completely that it's better to learn to express new things than express old things in a new way, at least up to a certain level. I'll try to clarify what I meant using a beginner example. In most textbooks, sports are handled in one chapter. You learn the words for swimming and baseball. This means that this is now considered a closed chapter. I'm not saying that people should learn ten different ways to say "exercise" or "run" in Chinese, I'm saying that if you stay with the textbook, you'll learn to read fairly advanced texts after a while, but in a very, very limited area. To continue with the sports example, there are lots of other sports that aren't covered at all but that might still be useful to know. In this case, I'm arguing that breadth is better than depth. Using sports is just an example of course, this could be applied to anything.

This is no real problem unless your actual exposure is different from the intended use. In the early stages of language learning this is absolutely an issue, but I think unavoidable. At advanced level I expect you to use the language already pretty much for the intended use.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with this kind of argument, perhaps because my motivation for learning Chinese isn't the same as yours. I don't have a well-defined context for which I want to use my Chinese later (or now, for that matter). Sure, I have a number of long-term goals that show what I want to achieve and also say quite a lot about context, but saying that one should only learn what Chinese one expects to encounter in the desired area of use feels a bit narrow. How do I know what I will use my Chinese for? Do I know enough to determine what's useful and what isn't?

Not all sources have the same relevance for you. I think HSK is not truely frequency based and consequently it's a bit arbitrary anyway. I've seen doubts about the usefulness of the HSK vocabulary, specially at the higher levels, expressed.

Yes, I agree. Studying HSK vocabulary will impact your HSK results, but that's not the same as saying that it's the best source of new vocabulary. However, I do think that it's a convenient way to find gaps that someone thinks is useful but I personally don't know. For instance, I don't think advanced learners need to know everything on the advanced list, but intermediate learners should probably know everything on the beginner lists.

---

I think that we mostly agree (at least when it comes to the exposure bit, but perhaps that's no surprise), except I don't think as much in terms of usefulness in a specific context. I understand that this is the right way to go if you have a clear goal what you want to achieve with your Chinese and can picture accurately what the context looks like, but I don't really think like that. I'm not sure how the "average" learner thinks, but it would be interesting to hear what other people have to say.

[Silent]

To continue with the sports example, there are lots of other sports that aren't covered at all but that might still be useful to know.

True, but then, which sports should be covered? As a beginner there is no use in covering 100 different sports while you're barely able to order a meal in a restaurant. If you're into sports you'll seek exposure to it and the needed vocabulary will get covered naturally. If you hate sports it may still be usefull but other subjects will me more important to you. The real problem is you can't do it all at once. You have to learn gradually and the obvious choices are to follow a thought out method and accept their 'random' choices or find the exposure that's relevant for you. As a beginner the first is most likely to prevail. The more advanced you get the second becomes more important.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with this kind of argument, perhaps because my motivation for learning Chinese isn't the same as yours.

I can imagine you're not very comfortable with this reasoning, I share the feeling, but I feel it's the only rational reasoning. No matter how uncomfortable it may feel that you don't know high frequency words, the most important vocabulary is the vocabulary you're exposed too even if objectively seen the vocabulary is extremely rare. This is independent of 'objective' frequency lists etc, there is no use in learning vocabulary that you don't encounter in the 'wild'.

With respect to study goals, They are not that clear for me either. I feel however that the study goal doesn't make that much of a difference. After you covered the basics and start using the language for 'real' you will get exposure to material that you find interesting. You will read, watch documentaries, shows etc that interest you and as such are most relevant for you. There's no reason to learn about different types of brushes if you're not interested in art and possibly even don't know the words in your native language only because they are more high frequency then the words you're learning about the subject you do care about. I can imagine it feels narrow to you, but in reality I think it's not that narrow. I mean most people are interested in a range of things each with their own specific vocabulary. Your natural exposure will cover all these subjects. I feel natural exposure is the solution to your worry that you don't know what language you will encounter. Because the language you will encounter is most likely going to match with the vocabulary you encounter when engaged in your interests and lifestyle. The only exception may be in cases of 'emergency' as you most likely won't visit first aid etc on a daily basis.

I don't think advanced learners need to know everything on the advanced list, but intermediate learners should probably know everything on the beginner lists.

The basics are needed for everyone. I think the vocabulary their is so common it's hard to avoid. Their is essentially no debate about that. Frequency lists may be handy for determining what to learn but loose their value with the progress you make. What's really high frequency for you will pop-up naturally. Frequency lists can however give you a kickstart when starting out in general or with new subjects. Make a frequency list over some varied material about the subject and you know what to learn without the noise natural exposure creates through a-typical sources.

I understand that this is the right way to go if you have a clear goal what you want to achieve with your Chinese and can picture accurately what the context looks like, but I don't really think like that.

I think you shouldn't project how/where you're going to use the language. I think you have to see it the other way around. The exposure you get depends on what/who you are. It depends on your interests, your behaviour and your activities. If you choose your material accordingly you will learn naturally what you need to know. If you choose, even at advanced level, your material primarily because of 'educational' value you will get exposure to material that does not match your life and is more likely to be useless for you. That said, there is nothing wrong with that kind of a-typical exposure, it just should not be your focus.

[Olle Linge]

Basically, I understand your reasoning and think you have a point, so let me summarise what we have so far and see if we can agree to disagree.

We both agree that exposure is a good way of covering vocabulary and making sure we know what we need to know. I also think it's clear that what we need to know is dependent on what we want to use the language for.

What I'm saying is that using frequency lists (and other, similar things) is a way of covering the basics a lot quicker. We can find things we should really know (because they are really common), but we haven't seen or heard, perhaps because we just haven't noticed these words. Sports wasn't a very good example, perhaps.

I think we might have a problem with the definition of "basic", too. If you mean "what you need to communicate in Chinese in most situations and about most topics, but excluding specialised words for different areas", then I agree with what you say. I'm mainly talking about what happens up to this level, not after it. Do you understand my reasoning (i.e. is this a misunderstanding or is it just that we don't agree)?

[Silent]

What I'm saying is that using frequency lists (and other, similar things) is a way of covering the basics a lot quicker. We can find things we should really know (because they are really common), but we haven't seen or heard, perhaps because we just haven't noticed these words. Sports wasn't a very good example, perhaps.

If this is what you mean we agree, lists are good for a (kick) start, not so much for advancement. I wonder whether there is really an issue with your vocabulary. I don't know which words you don't know from the HSK list, I don't know which words are in your Anki deck. I see however that from beginner and basic you missed less than 1 percent. Essentially you covered the material properly. From intermediate 5-10% were unknown, not perfect, but still a very decent score. Only for advanced there is an 'issue' and you missed a significant part of the vocabulary. To me this pretty much confirms that the real basics will be covered naturally asumming you didn't follow the list in your studies.

Your Anki deck is 15000, less than double the complete (old) HSK list and roughly double the HSK words you know. As said I don't know the vocabulary in your deck and what you missed from the HSK list so I'm speculating here. I suspect a decent amount of the words in your list that are not in HSK are still fairly basic. A list like HSK can't cover everything and certain words are considered implied knowledge. The obvious ones are days of the weeks, counting, plurals etc but there are many more. Also some vocabulary is very 'personal'. HSK doesn't cover most nationalities, language skills, jobs, interests, living situations etc while you need to learn these words fairly early on to introduce yourself. Two reasons why I think you _must_ have vocabulary outside the HSK list from fairly early on. This vocabulary may be larger then you think.

Then of course there is the natural exposure thing that just gives your vocabulary a personal touch depending on your interests. Specially at the higher levels this becomes relevant. I mean there are only few words that occur 1 in 100 or more and these will be covered in the lower levels. The number of words that occur 1 in 10 000 or 1 in 100 000 is much bigger. I see no reason why the 'randomly' chosen words in the list are more important than words of the same frequency that did not make it to the list but happen to be related to your personal interests. So, at the higher levels you get a natural diversion. When you advance enough the vocabulary in the advanced level will get covered naturally too, it's just a far slower process as the pool of words at that level is much larger.

[Olle Linge]

I've thought this through and I think you bring up quite a number of relevant things. My article (and my reasoning here) is definitely more useful for beginners and intermediate students. It can also be regarded as becoming less important as the learners exposure to Chinese grows larger, because, as you point out, frequency problems sort themselves out, more or less. I still see two functions with using frequency dictionaries or similar tools:

- As a springboard to rapidly increase reading/listening ability. This is true in general when we start learning, but it's also useful when we delve into a new, more specialised area. Learning key vocabulary common in news broadcasts and newspapers is really good to boost comprehension.

- As a safety valve if you feel insecure or don't trust that you have exposed yourself to enough Chinese (either because you're lazy or simply because you haven't had the time to do it). I feel insecure, sometimes, especially because I'm a teacher. This is true in both Chinese and English. I'm not learning these language only for my own sake, I'm also transferring that knowledge to other people. I realise now more clearly than before that this influences my thinking a lot.

So, basically I agree with what you say. Thanks for taking your time to explain. This is why I love discussing things on these forums. I might think I have a clear opinion going into a debate, but I'm never sure exactly where I will come out. Of course, I still consider what I wrote to be true, but if I rewrote the article, it would look quite different. So thanks for sharing your insights!

[Silent]

- As a springboard to rapidly increase reading/listening ability. This is true in general when we start learning, but it's also useful when we delve into a new, more specialised area. Learning key vocabulary common in news broadcasts and newspapers is really good to boost comprehension.

Essentially the point I tried to get across. The kickstart (in general or a new field) versus making it fit your own personality and interests.

- As a safety valve if you feel insecure or don't trust that you have exposed yourself to enough Chinese

I can understand people do it, I think it's very good to go back to the basics once in a while. I would however not suggest it for vocabulary, I would for grammar and I would certainly for more technical fields of study. I even feel it's a very bad solution to do so for vocabulary. Essentially, if you go back to the basic vocabulary, you will notice that you missed some. Specially if you don't go back to the very basics, but only one or two steps back of your present position. This gap might feed the insecurity instead of solving it. Gaps in vocabulary only one or two levels down from your present top position are natural. Rationally seen there is no issue. Unless of course you teach specialised language for a field that does not interest you.

So, basically I agree with what you say. Thanks for taking your time to explain. This is why I love discussing things on these forums.

I'm happy to do so. I like such debates as they tend to expose other points of view and approaches. Very educational!