Beijing ready for a non-smoking bar or not ?

[langxia]

I am soon going to open a bar/cafe/galery in beijing and when me and the people I am gonna open up the place discussed it also came up if we should go non-smoking or smoking.

I am a smoker myself but wouldn't mind it beeing non smoking but I somehow doubt it that most people would go the extra mile to go to a non-smoking bar.

So my question is do you think beijing is ready for a successful non-smoking bar or not ? (from a bussiness perspective, non-smoking beeing the better health choice is very clear to me )

[WestTexas]

ehh I'm not a businessman or anything but just my two cents

I think it could definitely be successful. There's enough people who live in Beijing who are health-conscious for there to be a bar for them to go to. Also, with the recent pollution issues (from what I hear it's been getting worse and worse), now would be a good time to target these fears with a bar marketed as having cleaner air. I'm sure you know more about bars and stuff than me, but IMO you should make the fact it is non-smoking a conspicuous part of your marketing approach. You could complete the 'healthy' bar thing with healthy snacks or fruit smoothies. Obviously, developing a consistent clientele base is key to any bar's success, so once you let some of the people who are very health-conscious but like to drink know about your bar, you could have some sort of system to reward them for repeated business. This way, your bar will not be empty (people who walk into an empty bar are likely to walk right back out), and these health-conscious customers will tell their (perhaps also health-conscious) friends about your bar.

Your bar is probably going to be more up-scale in its clientele, I would think. College student X and alcoholic English Teacher Y don't care about going to a smoke-free bar, not to mention that they already probably have a favorite bar to go to. Yuppie businessman Z and his wife might be more typical customers for such an establishment. So obviously, you should consider that when placing ads and developing a marketing strategy.

Just my 2cents you know, like I said I'm not a businessman but I have lived here for awhile and I did teach business classes at a university last year (which I was in no way qualified to do, but still I learned a good deal from it).

[Shelley]

Hello,

I have run my own business in the uk for the last 35 years. We do PA, disco and lighting. This means we work with the pubs,clubs, cafes, bars etc. i can only tell you that the consequenses of the Uk introducing a no smoking policy a few years ago in these places has led to many many of them closing. ( I'd say at least 50%)

I wouldn't make it no smoking, you will cut out most of your customers who will opt for one they can smoke in. You could have a smoke free room for people to use but don't put all your eggs in one basket. People here would rather now get a few beers in and a dvd and stay at home where they can smoke rather than go out to a place they have to stand outside whatever the weather to have a smoke. You can always change later to full no smoking if you think after being in business for awhile that Beijing needs one. My advice? slowley slowley and don't do anything drastic. Shelley

PS another option is good airconditioning.

[skylee]

people who are very health-conscious but like to drink[/Quote]

?Do such people exist?

[bande]

My town recently banned smoking in bars, and it's made for a much more pleasant drinking experience. Once you can go to a bar and come out not caked in smoke you wonder why you put up with it before.

[roddy]

I'd say it's more than ready for it, and you're as likely to attract non-smokers as you are to drive smokers away. There are already non-smoking places - Cafe Zarah on Guloudong is non-smoking, and although it's strictly speaking a cafe it does good business as a bar on weekend evenings. If you don't know Cafe Zarah, it's the one with all the smokers outside on the steps.

Some personal pleas - if you've going to have separate sections, don't give smokers the best bits. And consider making outside areas non-smoking too, especially if you're serving food.

However, if you're going to do this, you need to have your staff trained to pull people up on it. And it's going to depend on what kind of place you are. If it's packed full of lots of drunk people, they're going to want to smoke. If it's more couples and small groups chatting and having a meal and wine, it'll be a lot easier.

Where are you opening up?

[gougou]

I think the Veggie Table (formerly Lazzy Cafe) on Wudaoying is non-smoking too. They went all the way in being a healthy restaurant, and seem to be doing alright. Definitely something you should have a look at.

[amandagmu]

Mao mao chong is also non-smoking, and no one seems to mind going outside to smoke. Check out their ratings and how packed it gets... I'm sure the fact that they have delicious pizzas and well-made cocktails - not to mention good, friendly, helpful service - more than makes up for the fact that they are a no-smoking place.

More to the point, I think Beijing needs more non-smoking places, especially bars and late-night places. I don't know why anyone would say otherwise. As one example, I'm a runner who doesn't smoke and I often avoided places in Beijing that allowed smoking. I spent a lot of time at Cafe Zarah and Mao mao chong, and I can tell you those places are ALWAYS full at peak hours. People get turned away because there just isn't space (or they're even willing to wait for a table).

Also, I lived in the SF bay area for a while and everywhere indoors was no smoking. It did not affect business, but then again that could be due to weather never being unbearably cold.

[roddy]

When Lazzy Cafe was still Lazzy Cafe I think it was non-smoking in the daytime, or something like that.

[adrianlondon]

the consequenses of the Uk introducing a no smoking policy a few years ago in these places has led to many many of them closing. ( I'd say at least 50%)

I have to pull you up on this ... are you saying over half of all pubs and cafes in the UK have closed down because of the smoking ban? I don't believe it.

[langxia]

Well the location is at houhai, but not with all the bars but more into the direction of 新街口and积水潭。 our plan is to be more cafe like during the day where you can have a coffee and maybe a little snack and just relax. Probably going the non-smoking way during the day anyway.

But the question is the evenings, we want to target a younger audience and be more a place where you come to have drinks (hopefully a lot of em). From my experience here in beijing I know very few (if not to say none) chinese people that drink a lot and don't smoke at least when it comes to males, females is a bit more hard to say but from my personal observation i would say that there is also a trend that if they drink a lot they also are more likely to light one up. The expat community is a little bit different I think, I met more expats that like to drink but don't smoke. (also here only personal environement observations)

Two seperate rooms are out of the question as that would need major transformations.

@shelley that would be a pretty big number, and I am not sure it can only be linked to the smoking ban, can it ? what I read mostly in the press of countrys that introduced a nation wide smoking ban in public places is that at least for restaurants the numbers went up, bars and cafes might be another story (and probably are)

I will probably go and check out this cafe zarah then.

Thanks for all the replys so far keep em coming.

[Shelley]

Hi,

The figure of 50% is only in my personal experiance. I used to be able to walk (10 mins approx) to 9 pubs from my front door. Now it is 5, and 2 of those only open at evenings and weekends.

have a look at this web page http://www.amendthesmokingban.com/

I am not saying that there should not be any no smoking places but as a start up venture i would give myself as many chances as possible to succeed.

Good luck

Shelley

[Silent]

I don't think a smoking ban in the UK has anything to do with opening a (non)smoking bar in Beijing. There is a huge difference between being the same as all the rest (smoking or non-smoking) or be different from the rest (non smoking in a smoking mainstream).

Also I believe not that the lack of business is all due to the smoking ban. In the Netherlands many pub owners were already complaining well before the smoking ban. Then it was said to be the economic crisis. When the smoking ban here was upcoming I read somewhere that in some other places (Ireland?) the smoking ban resulted in a severe drop in business but that after half a year, a year the number of customers was back to normal or even higher than before the ban. Don't know whether it's true, but it's far more complicated than only the smoking/non-smoking issue.

[jbradfor]

The figure of 50% is only in my personal experiance. I used to be able to walk (10 mins approx) to 9 pubs from my front door. Now it is 5, and 2 of those only open at evenings and weekends.

That is an absurdly small sample size given all the pubs in the UK.

More to the point, I think Beijing needs more non-smoking places, especially bars and late-night places. I don't know why anyone would say otherwise.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you.... the business question is whether a business would do better as a smoking place or as a non-smoking place. You would need more non-smokers go there just because it is non-smoking than smokers not go there because it is non-smoking. [Hope I got those "not" correct!] The problem is, while there might be a lot of non-smokers, not being able to smoke would likely make a smoker not go there, while not having others smoke is just one factor in why a non-smoker would pick a place.

Mao mao chong is also non-smoking

Name like that you would think they would at least allow smoking in hookahs....

[Shelley]

Yes its an absurdly small sample, but it is only my personal experience.

The point jbradfor makes is what I was tring to say.

You increase your possible clientel by not excluding anyone for any reason. Thats all I was tring to say. It is impossible to say why these pubs and clubs have failed but it must be a considering factor that it coencided with this ban being introduced.

Also you have the situation of 3 or 4 people going out together, if 2 of them smoke and are not willing not to smoke for the evening then you lose 4 customers.

Again i say consider good airconditioning.

Best of luck in your venture and you must let us know what you decide:)

Shelley

[Silent]

You increase your possible clientel by not excluding anyone for any reason.

Maybe you increase the possible clientele. What matters is the actual clientele. The actual clientele may very well increase due to the exclusion of others. Many people prefer to go somewhere else if there are (often) troublemakers. Maybe less obvious, but people avoid places because of smokers. If everyone caters to non-smokers (UK) competition among non-smoking bars will be fierce and a smoking bar is a far better deal. In a place where everyone caters for smokers (Beijing) catering to non smokers may be a very interesting niche market.

[skylee]

I agree with jbradfor. I think what the OP asks is about the readiness, and my impression is that in China possible smoking bar patrons are way more than non-smoking ones. Supposing this is the case, if everything else is the same, it is more likely for a bar that allows smoking to succeed. But of course there are less or no non-smoking bars so there might be an interesting niche as Silent said. If there are enough "people who are very health-conscious but like to drink", perhaps this niche is more attractive. So this comes back to the OP's original questions. Perhaps he should do some serious market surveys to check his potential share of market (if it is serious money that one invests, serious study seems necessary). I recently heard in the film "Margin Call" that the three ways to be very successful are "be first, be smarter, or cheat". Perhaps if the OP can be one of the first, he would make it.

But if I were to run such a business I would like to be sure that my business would succeed. Personally I don't smoke and I hate cigarette smoke and would always prefer non-smoking places. In Hong Kong almost all indoor places are non-smoking. But there is a law here, and mostly we are law-abiding. But even so, it is not easy to enforce this law here in places like bars / karaoke / some restaurants.

[rezaf]

In China 煙酒不分家 but if you want to focus on a minority of health-conscious expats then you should do some research about how to decorate the place for them.

[langxia]

Well it looks like we will be going the smoking road. Skylee put it kind of right, I was asking about the readiness. And as we can't afford it to make a serious study (time and money wise) we will probably aks our guests if they would prefer it we go the non-smoking road or not. It will be non-smoking during the day and smoking in the evenings.

I was kind of hoping for an uproar here on the forums from foreigners living in beijing looking for such a place but it seems that even in the expat community the need for such a place seems not that big.

Thanks for all the input. For those that are living in Beijing or nearby, we will have our opening party on the 24th. our weibo adress is http://weibo.com/u/2532881725 for those that use weibo.

(I hope I can put these information and that they don't violate the user-promotion guidelines. If so roddy please delete the weibo link)

[cui ruide]

Silly of me to mention this, but isn't it technically illegal to allow smoking indoors anyway? ;p

From personal, not statistical experience, none of the many places I know that enforce no-smoking hurt for business: Mao Mao Chong, Cafe Zarah, Alba, etc. Some of my smoker friends (expats) even prefer non-smoking bars and are happy to go outside.

Interesting location--why there?