Good chinese-chinese dictionary

[Olle Linge]

Before I say anything else, let me tell you that I've searched the forums and looked through all the threads relating to Chinese-Chinese dictionaries. I have found useful information, but today I published an article about using Chinese-Chinese dictionaries and there is one thing I'm not satisfied with.

I started using Chinese-Chinese dictionaries fairly late (I knew around 10 000 words at the time) and still found it difficult. However, there should be dictionaries that use more everyday Chinese. In my article, I make the comparison between using Merriam-Webster and Longman in English. Here we have the definitions for "labyrinth":

Merriam-Webster:

1a : a place constructed of or full of intricate passageways and blind alleys

1b : a maze (as in a garden) formed by paths separated by high hedges

2: something extremely complex or tortuous in structure, arrangement, or character : intricacy, perplexity

3: a tortuous anatomical structure; especially : the internal ear or its bony or membranous part

Longman:

1: a large network of paths or passages which cross each other, making it very difficult to find your way [= maze]

2: something that is very complicated and difficult to understand

As we can clearly see, Merriam-Webster contains a lot of fairly advanced words, some of which are more difficult than the word we want to define. This is the case for some of the Chinese-Chinese dictionaries I use, too (especially the one from Taiwan's Ministry of Education). Personally, I don't mind, because I plan to learn those more advanced words anyway and enjoy doing so, but I'm thinking of intermediate learners here.

In the other threads, people asked for simpler dictionaries in Chinese and some were suggested (although none online). If I have missed a thread or a post in a thread, please let me know!

My question now is, does anyone know of an online dictionary which is more similar to Longman above than Merriam-Webster? What's the simplest Chinese-Chinese dictionary you know of? There must be demand for this kind of dictionary from native speakers, so I think there should be such dictionaries, I just can't find them.

[imron]

My first Chinese-Chinese dictionary was the paper《现代汉语词典》。I remember in the beginning having to look up chains of words, e.g. I'd look up a word and the meaning would contain a word I didn't know so I'd have to look up that word, which would contain a word I didn't know and so on until it reached a word I completely understood, which then meant I could understand the previous word, and then understand the word before that, and so on all the way back to the original word. There's no doubt that initially using a Chinese-Chinese dictionary is going to be a rude shock with a steep learning curve, and sure, at first it takes 5 times as long to understand the meaning of a single word, but ultimately it pushes your Chinese to a higher level, and once you get used to using a Chinese-Chinese dictionary, you'll find it difficult to go back to a Chinese-English dictionary, because many explanations are so imprecise (at least I found this to be the case for myself).

Currently I use 《现代汉语规范词典》which comes with Pleco. Pleco certainly makes lookup up chains of words easier (although nowadays, I'll typically only need to go up one level in the chain), and tools such as this should really lower the entry level required for using a Chinese-Chinese dictionary, not only because it simplifies chained lookups, but also because you can easily switch between a C-C dictionary and an C-E one to help clear up any doubts.

[imron]

I've also now just finished reading your post and think it contains a lot a good advice.

I agree that a Chinese-Chinese dictionary is not really suitable for beginners, but I do think people at the intermediate level (and especially upper-intermediate) should begin starting to consider it - not necessarily as their only dictionary, but definitely as something they should be checking too when they look up words (if not as a first choice, then definitely after they've looked it up in English, just to see if they can then get the same meaning from reading the Chinese). Nowadays with electronic dictionaries, the barrier to entry for a C-C dictionary is significantly lower.

Also, to answer your question, I really like the 《现代汉语规范词典》especially as a learner, because unlike 《现代汉语词典》it regularly has notes that point out difference in usage between similar words.

[WestTexas]

I use dict.baidu.com, it will display the full Chinese page with some English translations too. Basically I read the Chinese definitions, and if I don't understand them, I use the English. Also, if you highlight one of the words in the dictionary entry you don't know, it will pop up a small window with that word's definition. There are definitely times when it will define a word by just listing several (more obscure) synonyms, but sometimes it has a nice, long, simple definition. You start to see when using the Chinese-Chinese dictionary that there are lots of subtleties that the English translation does not cover. Many words will be more limited in scope in Chinese than their English translations, or a word with several different translations into English, which seem to be different meanings, will all be covered by the same Chinese definition (which actually makes the word much easier to learn, in my experience). I would put my Chinese reading level at upper-intermediate at best, but I can work out maybe 3/4 of the Baidu definitions without using the English.

[murrayjames]

You can also try http://www.zdic.net/

[Olle Linge]

Zdic is good, but the problem is that it's still too difficult. It ought to be possible to have dictionary entries on a much more basic level. For instance, compare these two entries defining the word "sun" and “太陽” respectively. This is from Longman:

the large bright object in the sky that gives us light and heat, and around which the Earth moves:

And this is from Zdic:

地球等行星围绕它公转的恒星,是由本身引力吸引在一起的直径为 1.4×10 6 公里的气体球,其内部深处热核反应把氢聚变为氦而释放出能量

I would argue that the Zdic version is a lot more difficult and uses a more formal language than Longman. It also describes the entry in a manner which is not related to daily life (such as including the distance from the Earth and a description of fusion). What I'm after here is a Longman in Chinese.

When I teach English, I usually recommend using Longman because it's definitions are accurate but yet quite easy to understand. Teaching Chinese, I would never dream of recommending someone using only Zdic, simply because they would have to be at a very high level indeed to understand enough.

[googed]

This is a problem with almost all Chinese dictionaries I've encountered. They have a ridiculously slow learning curve with their use of supercilious definitions that are not even used in spoken speech--which is adequate for describing any idea. The Advanced Oxford Learners dictionary uses a fixed list of 3000 words, and does the job superbly. Chinese has no such dictionary, and discourages the casual learner from ever learning the written script. This should be a focus for the Chinese government if they are serious about increasing the Chinese speaker base.The Xinhua cidian has more concise definitions than Zdic, although some of the entry definitions are pretty advanced for the word you're looking for. Youdao is the best in my own opinion. At least it has mouseover for quick lookup, and examples database.

[Gleaves]

I also use and really like Guifan (现代汉语规范词典) in Pleco. It's not beginner easy, but it is not too tough. To give you an example, here is 太阳 - 银河系的恒星之一，太阳的中心天体，是一个炽热的气体球，内部不断发生热核反应，产生巨大的能量。地球和其他八颗行星都围绕它旋转，并从它获得光和热。 As far as I know, it is not searchable online. It is sometimes missing entries that ABC has, which is disappointing, but more often than not, it does a better job of explaing a word to me than a C-E dictionary. Chinese dictionaries are great when you run into words like 送命 and the definition is simply 断送生命.

[yersi]

Seconding the recommendation for Guifan.

[Olle Linge]

I found this one from the Taiwanese Ministry of Education. It seems to have mostly individual characters, but under each character, there are numerous examples. If we look at 太陽 again, this is what it looks like. In my opinion, this is what we're looking for, but I'm afraid this dictionary is a bit limited since you cant' look up words directly.

太陽：日的通稱。天體恆星之一，有巨大的輻射熱能。距離地球大約一億五千萬公里。如：「太陽能」、「太陽系」、「太陽黑子」。

This definition is on a much more colloquial level and should be easier to understand. What do you think? Try some other words and see what you think. It looks like the dictionary contains quite a number of good examples as well. It seems impossible to link directly to the site, but here is another example:

【國】囗-8-11 注音 ㄍㄨㄛˊ 解釋 (1) 有土地、人民、主權、政府的團體。如：「國家」、「中國」、「美國」、「國際」、「愛國」。 (2) 屬於本國的。如：「國人」、「國貨」、「國土」、「國歌」、「國民道德」。 (3) 代表國家的。如：「國花」、「國旗」、「國歌」。 (4) 地區。如：「水鄉澤國」。 (5) 古代諸侯的封地。如：「魯國」、「齊國」。

[OneEye]

@Snigel

Is that 國語辭典？ That one was recommended to me by my teacher at Shi Da. She doesn't like when I use CE/EC dictionaries, but my level isn't all that high yet so she said 國語辭典 would be best. I've also been told that it's the dictionary that Taiwanese middle school kids use. Haven't picked up a copy yet, but if it's online, even better.

[skylee]

It is online, and is one of my usual/favourite tools. -> http://dict.revised.moe.edu.tw/

There is also a mini version suitable for primary school students/teachers -> http://dict.mini.moe...i?o=ddictionary

PS - It is a tool that people find convincing / trustworthy / definitive. Once I was queried about my use of the word 回覆 in a letter. I showed my boss the Taiwan MOE dictionary and she stopped the questioning.

[Olle Linge]

The Taiwanese Ministry of Education provides a number of dictionaries, all accessible via the websites linked to above. In this thread, two of them have been mentioned:

1) 教育部重編國語辭典修訂本 - This is the full edition and is NOT recommended for less than advanced students; you WILL get lost in the labyrinth VERY quickly. I use this dictionary myself mostly when I really can't find the word anywhere else or need to find some detailed descriptions that aren't available in less comprehensive dictionaries. The main problem is that most examples are very far from modern, colloquial Chinese (most are in classical Chinese).

2) 國語小字典 - This is, as Skylee says, a smaller dictionary with easier descriptions and more practical examples. However, even though I use this dictionary a lot, it has a serious drawbark; it only offers definitions of characters (although sometimes examples are given of words and their usage; see my example with 太陽 above).

So, I'm still searching. If I find anything more of interest, I'll definitely post it here.

[feng]

Having been living in Taiwan for quite some time now, and starting to (very slowly) read native chinese websites, I am beginning to come across limitations of the free and paid dictionaries of pleco.

So my question os, what do people use for advanced levels, are there good chinese-chinese dictionaries? I notice Pleco actually had one for $42, not sure if its any good though.

[rezaf]

Pleco's Hanyu Guifan is usually enough for me but if it doesn't have it I go to http://www.zdic.net and if it doesn't have it I search it on Baidu.

edit: In case you are not comfortable reading simplified you can use this one as well: http://dict.revised.moe.edu.tw/

[roddy]

Merged the above two posts with a similar recent topic. I'd echo the recommendations for the Guifan.

[feng]

Sounds like pleco's C-C dictionary is worth the money. I will give it a go. Great point about how it would be easier to click through a chain of words in pleco!

[skylee]

are there good chinese-chinese dictionaries?

What kind of question is this? Of course there are. Did you mean online dictionaries only?

Personally I rely on two paper dictionaries - (1) 現代漢語詞典繁體版 (2) 朗文中文高級新辭典. The Taiwan MOE dictionary in rezaf's post above is also an excellent resource. If all these fail you, you can always resort to google or baidu.

[imron]

Sounds like pleco's C-C dictionary is worth the money.

Yes. For me, it's the number one thing I like about Pleco.

[roddy]

pleco's C-C dictionary

It's worth specifying here that the 'Pleco C-C' dictionary IS the Guifan. Pleco's quite often referred to as a dictionary, whereas it's more accurately an dictionary app into which you can install a number of licensed dictionaries. You can't really meaningfully talk about the 'Pleco dictionaries' unless you'respecific about which ones.