The Flowers of War

[skylee]

I forgot to mention that I really liked the dialect / accent (Nanjing?) in the film. Is that how 吳音軟語 sounds? That is very charming.

PS - Also I hate the way the film labels every actor (and even the author) with their nationality. Why is this necessary?Would people fail to realise that someone called 渡部 is Japanese? I don't remember how Christian Bale is labelled, but it is in brackets behind his name in Chinese. I seem to remember that someone is labelled 香港. Again not sure why it is necessary.

[rob07]

Tell us more about the disastrous date.

She was a Chinese tutor and the Japanese guy was a student of hers, as was I, this was how I heard the story. They went on a date to the movie theatre without having first decided what they were going to see and 南京！南京！was the only one on at a convenient time, apart from a couple of stupid car chase type movie she did not want to see at the time (but, obviously, afterwards wished they had).

She said that they had dinner after the movie, as had been agreed in advance, and "we were like this" - she pulled her chair to the left side of her desk and mimed eating food while staring off to the left (that was her) and then immediately pulled her chair to the right side of her desk and mimed eating food while staring off to the right (that was the Japanese guy). The Japanese guy did break the silence to assure her that he had had no idea that anything like the Nanjing Massacre had ever happened but apart from that neither of them said anything during dinner. He was working for a company that was paying for him to study at the school she worked at, so he had to keep on doing so and it was awkward.

My Chinese was good enough at that point that miming would not have been necessary, but she really was a very gifted mime, both expressive and funny. I also remember her miming having a subtitle track running across her forehead as she spoke Chinese, and miming being a zombie.

[abcdefg]

Saw it today in Kunming and liked it a lot. Powerful film. I remember seeing "Nanjing Nanjing" here when it first came out and watching quite a few audience members making for the door in tears during the showing. I saw nothing similar in the theater today.

I was glad the director did not deem it necessary to show the inevitably awful ending and just let us imagine it happening off screen.

[skylee]

I remember many people were moved to tears after 南京！南京！ but everyone seemed fine after this one.

I remember seeing Nanjing Nanjing here when it first came out and watching quite a few audience members making for the door in tears during the showing. I saw nothing similar in the theater today.

Similar observations on audience in different places (Shanghai and Kunming). Am I right to interpret that the brutality in this film is more bearable than that in "Nanjing! Nanjing!"?

[xiaocai]

I think a typical 吴侬软语 will 苏州话, whereas 南京 accent is not quite there. But I also think it is quite likeable.

PS - Also I hate the way the film labels every actor (and even the author) with their nationality. Why is this necessary?

Maybe to make it more "international". Sounds stupid? But I know many Chinese audience really buy into this kind of stuff...

[abcdefg]

Similar observations on audience in different places (Shanghai and Kunming). Am I right to interpret that the brutality in this film is more bearable than that in "Nanjing! Nanjing!"?

It seemed to me that whereas in "Nanjing! Nanjing!" the cynical brutality of the Japanese was the main focus, in this film our attention was also directed to the development of the main characters, especially the Christian Bale/John Miller character. We could figure out rather quickly that the beautiful Yu Mo was going to have a heart of gold, but it was touch and go whether the alcoholic reprobate Miller could find enough inner resources to do the right thing.

Incidentally, I really liked Major Li (Tong Dawei) and remembered him fondly from his strong small role in the second part of Red Cliff 赤壁。

[Holeintwo]

Once again Zhang Yimou confirmed himself just an also ran director, completely alienated from the reputation of his earlier works. "The Flower of War" is a terrible film. It looks like a chop suey of "Saving Private Ryan", "Enemy At The Gates" and "The Pianist". The film again like his three previous epics, lacks originality.

The plot was as implausinble as you can imagine. Why would two young women in bright dresses run around the ruins of the rape of Nanjing? If you want to peep at the Japanese soldiers at your place from a hidden spot, would you carry your cat with you? Many audience laughed.

Credit to the performance by the girls and the ladies. But Christian Bale looks like he just wanna get through the motion. The ending carries the same subtlety of many Zhang's films leading the audience to feel the unthinkable the ladies would face (John Woo would surely have a bloody extravaganza at the end) but it didn't save the film.

I agree with one of the readers. "Hero" carried a theme that was too political and it changed my opinion on Zhang ever since. When Jet Li said, "Tiansha", I was shocked a director like Zhang whose previous works have been against establishment could make a turn to appease Beijing. Of course Beijing 2008 explained why. Then he made a good action film "The House of the Flying Daggers". Good but hardly original as An Lee has already done so. Then that mess called "Curse of the Golden Flower" with Gong Li was offensive to all democratic thinking movie goers. Chow Yun-fat's message to Jay Chow ("You don't ask for it. I give you when I think fit") was repeated several months later by Wu Bangguo to Hong Kong. It was a propaganda no less.

I was a fan of Zhang until "Hero" when he made a U-turn in his beliefs. An artist is not supposed to do that.

[jkhsu]

No Oscar nomination for this movie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/84th_Academy_Awards

[Brian US]

Saw the movie last week and I have mixed reactions. Some of you have already gone over the flaws, but it still left a deep impact that set the somber tone on the walk back home. I didn't know much about the movie beyond the trailer, so I was glad to see Christian Bale's character progressing beyond the womanizing alcoholic foreigner at the beginning of the movie.

I think a big aspect of Hollywood movies is the fulfillment of revenge. Bad guy who takes the girl ends up dying in a big explosion as the hero saves the day. Chinese movies has the hero die, why? because he questioned authority and authority wins. Blindness, a 2008 movie about everyone in the world going blind, got a lot of criticism due to a rape scene. In the scene one group of survivors rapes the women of another group in exchange for supplies. I expected at some point the victims would rise up and finish off the rapists in brutal fashion. This doesn't happen and they simply escape without any closure on what happens to the other group.

This probably goes away from the book and the tone at the end of "The Flowers of War," but the American I went to see it with suggested it would have been better to show the last scene as the women go down in a hail of gunfire as they get revenge on the Japanese command.

[skylee]

Hi Brian US, I've watched the film blindness and I disliked it but not because of the rape. I just thought the story sucked.

I disgree with your view that "Chinese movies has the hero die, why? because he questioned authority and authority wins." I think in real life it is not always that the heroes win. Even in novels many heroes fail, so why hightlight those in Chinese movies? In a revolution, usually the victory doesn't come even after many people have died. People may pursue the right goal but sometimes things just don't turn out right. Maybe the timing is not right, maybe they are not ready, etc. It is fine that a big aspect of Hollywood movies is the fulfillment of revenge, but it doesn't mean that everyone has to make movies the Hollywood way, or tell stories the American way. There are different kinds of movies, so when people get tired of films that the heroes always win, they can turn to see some movies where the heroes die.

All these remind me of an old film (Belgium?) called Toto le heros. I think it was one of the saddest films I have seen. The leading man fails all his life, he doesn't get the girl he wants, or the life he wants. I liked it very much, and I cried my eyes out.

PS - I think the ending of 金陵十三釵 is fine as it is. It allows the audience to imagine the inevitable and leads them to feel the sadness. I think it is important for artworks to allow the audience to think and feel and imagine. There are things like 餘韻 and 留白 that are appreciated by many viewers/readers.

[gato]

Toto Le Hero is one of my favorite films. ;-)

[jkhsu]

I think the ending of 金陵十三釵 is fine as it is.

I agree with this. Leaving the ending up to the viewers' imagination is one of the highlights of this film. Yimou already hinted about what might happen by showing us the fate of those 2 girls who left the church.

This probably goes away from the book and the tone at the end of "The Flowers of War," but the American I went to see it with suggested it would have been better to show the last scene as the women go down in a hail of gunfire as they get revenge on the Japanese command.

That would be too easy... and false. Here's a link from someone in the imdb message boards describing what probably did happen (warning: disturbing):

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1410063/board/thread/193292217?d=193475108&p=1#193475108

[Brian US]

I did like the ending, but I also didn't mean to stereotype every Hollywood and Chinese movie. I am however, slightly frustrated with every movie being shown in my classes having a depressing ending (最爱，我们俩，满城尽带黄金甲). Another teacher kept showing short films with death being a prevailing theme.

The movie blindness does suck.

[imron]

So did you see Beijing Bicycle yet?

[Brian US]

So did you see Beijing Bicycle yet?

I was about to, but when Roddy commented with some sarcastic undertones I cheated and flipped towards the end only to see a kid get his skull crushed with a brick.

I'll pass for now. I might even watch Jackie Chan's Around the World in 80 Days before I see it. I love me some family friendly Jackie Chan.

[jkhsu]

Just read this great article on the story behind Flowers of War on the BBC. Check it out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-16638897

[abcdefg]

Interesting article. It's a movie I would like to see twice.

[rob07]

So who were the 金陵十三钗？The thirteen who went to the party or the Winchester Cathedral students (13 if you count the one that died)?

[jkhsu]

So who were the 金陵十三钗？

The thirteen who went to the party.

[rob07]

It seems deliberately ambiguous. Although the prostitutes are the heroes, the students are the centre of the story and there were also 13 of them. As the author said in the article you linked to:

"What I wanted to stress in this story is the young girls, the virgins are the most final conquest of the conquerors, especially for the Japanese - you cannot call it a complete conquest unless you can conquer the enemy country's women.

"So the young girls coming of age are the most vulnerable and most desirable of the conquest... by protecting them I wanted to make the story more tragic and more beautiful."

The prostitutes are like mirror images of the students in a way, they too had the chance of a bright future when they were that age, and there are strong parallels between them (obviously particularly 书娟 and 玉墨). And George is not really a 钗