Retroflex pronounciation in the south.

[Robytobe]

I intend to use Mandarin in Singapore, HK and Southern China - and for fun.

I am aware that there are huge differences in pronounciation of Standard Mandarin throughout Asia.

In particular the retroflex thing. Some people who speak Hokkein or Cantonese as thier first language will most noticebly will mix up "sh" pronouncing it "s", they also have difficulty with the pronounciation of "ch" and "zh". Are they ignorant of it, or should they know better?

I want to know. In southern locations what is the social stigma associated with pronouncing like this, is it preferred or shunned. Do educated young people have this habit of pronounciation?

It is really just a question of curiosity. I will be pronouncing the retroflex.

Does any one have further comments about accents and pronounciation that might be relevant.

Thank you.

[renzhe]

This topic is a bit of a can of worms, and tends to degenerate into generalisations often. In general, many people in the south often have problems with distinguishing retroflex pairs, because their native dialects do not have this distinction. But there are many aspects to consider:

- this has been slowly changing because of the prevalence of mainstream media in recent decades, which ruthlessly promotes either the standard, or a strong northern pronunciation

- there are large migrations across China now, with many large cities turning into melting pots, so you meet people from all over China

- in my limited experience, the "standardness" or people's putonghua is often correlated with educational level since teachers and professors are supposed to speak standard (in theory) -- but this is NOT a hard and exact rule!!!

- with many people you will notice an "overcorrection" -- they will retroflex even things that shouldn't be, trying to compensate for the lack of retroflex they grew up with

- many many people will switch it on and off, depending on how official the situation is, and how hard they are concentrating. One minute, they will pronounce perfect "sh", "ch", and "zh", the next, they will drop them completely. This is because it often requires extra effort to speak "correctly" (in terms of the official standard), and around friends they don't bother

- it is not a "retroflex or not" question. You will encounter the complete range, from no retroflex at all, to complete retroflex. Many people will pronounce a soft retroflex which is clearly distinct from "s", "c", and "z", but not quite the same as "ch", "sh" and "zh". This is very typical for Taiwanese pronunciation, IMHO.

IMHO, in mainland China, nobody will be upset if you learn the standard (in this case the mainland putonghua, as taught by all textbooks and tested by the HSK and the PSC) as a foreigner, or if you speak it -- as long as it's reasonably standard, and not some forced attempt to sound like a Beijinger. If there is a stigma in some people's minds, it won't apply to foreigners. Due to the prevalence of standard putonghua in the media, it actually carries some prestige with many people. How many exactly, I don't know, it's just what I've been told.

I personally consider it a good idea to be thoroughly familiar with the standard pronunciation first, before attempting to emulate more dialectal pronunciations -- it will not hurt you in the long run. It's important to be aware of the differences and practice with different materials, so you can understand accented speech. It is VITAL to be respectful to people, regardless of how they speak and how you speak -- there are many accents across China, and this is fine.

[Hofmann]

You'll get different kinds of people, even in the same region. My experience in Taipei was that these retroflex consonants were often replaced by alveolo-palatal consonants.

[xiaoxiaocao]

说普通话写规范字做文明人

and you will be fine

[abcdefg]

- many many people will switch it on and off, depending on how official the situation is, and how hard they are concentrating. One minute, they will pronounce perfect "sh", "ch", and "zh", the next, they will drop them completely. This is because it often requires extra effort to speak "correctly" (in terms of the official standard), and around friends they don't bother

I find this often in Kunming. People will first talk with me very correctly, then after a few minutes they become relaxed and sloppy (and much more difficult for me to understand.)

[skylee]

Are they ignorant of it, or should they know better?

I think renzhe's reply is comprehensive and most importantly very kind.

[creamyhorror]

In Singapore, a Asian-looking person using full retroflex pronunciation would likely be assumed to be a mainlander and possibly be treated worse by some people. But if you're non-Asian, no one will mind. Most people, educated or not, in any situation, never use the full retroflex (which sounds very "mainland" and foreign). The exception would be Chinese teachers and academics.

Nonetheless there's a distinction between 's' and 'sh' when we're attempting to speak properly - 'sh'/'ch'/'zh' are pronounced with the soft/semi-retroflex that renzhe mentioned.

[wushijiao]

I want to know. In southern locations what is the social stigma associated with pronouncing like this, is it preferred or shunned. Do educated young people have this habit of pronounciation?

In my experience, there is basically no social stigma associated with people pronouncing words in the southern style in southern China. In fact, I've often argued that although there is only one state-sanctioned "standard" Putonghua, there are also de facto regional standards as well. (Or perhaps this is mainly the case for the Putonghua spoken in the Shanghai/Zhejiang area).

One other point to mention is that I often feel like this issue is much more important to learners of Chinese, since we are often much more adept at listening for the pinyin of words, so to speak, than we are of the tones. Whether people use "s" or "sh" is of vital importance to intermediate learners of Chinese, but not relevant to native speakers.

I personally consider it a good idea to be thoroughly familiar with the standard pronunciation first, before attempting to emulate more dialectal pronunciations -- it will not hurt you in the long run. It's important to be aware of the differences and practice with different materials, so you can understand accented speech. It is VITAL to be respectful to people, regardless of how they speak and how you speak -- there are many accents across China, and this is fine.

I couldn't agree with that more!

[rezaf]

since we are often much more adept at listening for the pinyin of words, so to speak, than we are of the tones.

It's not about the tones either as in many regions the tones are even more deformed than other things. It's more about habits and familiar patterns in a context.

[Robytobe]

Thank you so far everyone for the good responses.

I speak with a softer retroflex - and as I once was ignorant - a small number of the very common words without. (but I never do 's' for 'sh'). I wanted to know if it would be better to sharpen it up a bit.

My Chinese relative speaks with no retroflex - and seems to think it is more than adequate.

The responses have been *very* useful in building my confidence in getting it right. I think maybe watching different media more carefully might also help. I just don't want to speak in a way that is dated, tacky and undesirable. - Although I understand that I will aways speak like a foreigner.

[renzhe]

I find this often in Kunming. People will first talk with me very correctly, then after a few minutes they become relaxed and sloppy (and much more difficult for me to understand.)

Take it as a compliment. Once they see that you can follow, they relax.

[abcdefg]

Take it as a compliment. Once they see that you can follow, they relax.

Yes. I do take it that way. Funny thing happens over and over: The local person I'm talking with will go faster and faster and use more and more slang until I must ask them to repeat something that I couldn't even guess at. I think it may be sort of an unconscious test to see if I'm really listening; to find out if we are really communicating or whether I am only pretending. After they explain the part I missed, they often say something kind and reassuring along the lines of 听不懂就说。