difference between b and p

[Silent]

I had my first language exchange and was corrected on the pronunciation of p (片）but didn't really hear the difference between p (片）and b （八）. for me they both sound like p.

Anyone hints on how to distinguish and pronounce them?

[jkhsu]

I am not sure if this will help but you can try:

For the "p" sound in "片", you can use the "p" sound in "pea". As a test, try to distinguish between "pea" and "bee".

For the "b" sound in "八", you can use the "b" sound in "bar". As a test, try to distinguish between "bar" and "par" (as in golf).

Edit: These are approximations. Read renzhe's posts #6, #8, for a better explanation.

[Silent]

The difference between pea and bee, bar and par in English is clear to me. To me however the b in 八 often sounds more like a p when pronounced by chinese. When pronouncing 片I was told it's a p, not a b. When I asked to pronounce them for me I heard no difference. To me in chinese p and b seem to be much closer to each other than in English.

Maybe I should take 票 and 表 as an example next session as the sounds following p/b are more alike.

[歐博思]

In person language exchange or online? If it was online then based on your connection quality it may be more difficult to understand one another. Also, the various dialects are different in how they treat the b and p (and g/k - d/t) distinction. In some dialects the "b" is actually a less aspirated "p" while the actual "p" is a strongly aspirated "p".

Hold your hand in front of your mouth and say the following English words:

"perfect" - feel the strong puff of air for the "p"

"expert" - feel how the puff is much weaker on this "p"

In some dialects, they are accustomed to saying the pinyin "b" as the expert P while in others it is similar to English (un)aspirated differences. Owing to some being the same as English, I really wouldn't fret over this too much.

Here is the wiki link on this, for starters: http://en.wikipedia....rated_consonant

Also, find a P T K at the stressed position of an English word, then it will be pronounced like your language partners idea of a pinyin P T K, while finding a P T K in an unstressed position like in "expert" above then it will be pronounced as their pinyin B D G.

[tooironic]

If you think Mandarin's p's and b's are similar, try learning Korean.

[renzhe]

This will be very difficult to learn through descriptions, but here is what you should listen for when a native speaker demonstrates both -- a native speaker with a pronunciation as close to standard as you can get.

The difference between "b" and "p" in many (most?) European languages is that b (link) is voiced (vocal chords vibrate) and p (link) voiceless (the vocal chords do not vibrate).

In Mandarin there is no voiced bilabial consonant -- both pinyin "b" and pinyin "p" are voiceless. What is written as "b" in pinyin (link) is actually the voiceless version -- what you hear as IPA [p]. But Mandarin has another peculiarity -- there is an aspirated bilabial consonant written in pinyin as "p", and written in IPA as [pʰ] (link). This means that there is a burst of air leaving the mouth as the consonant is spoken. This sometimes occurs in English (the "pea" example), but is not indicated in writing, and sometimes goes unnoticed by non-native speakers of English, who hear a "p" and ignore the aspiration.

This is the classic view, though some people have been questioning this. In practice, since there is no voiced version in Mandarin, there is increased tolerance towards being voiced, IMHO, so the pinyin "b" will often sound somewhere between an IPA "b" and a "p" to my ears -- but never like a proper IPA . The pinyin "p" is completely voiceless and has a noticeable "breathy" feeling to it which you will easily identify if you listen for it.

The same "trick" applies to pinyin "d" and "t" (which are [t] and [tʰ], respectively) and "g" and "k" ([k] and [kʰ], resp.) This is unfortunately often not explained well to beginners, because some native speakers of Chinese do not hear the difference between "b" and "p" in other languages correctly, just like learners of Chinese don't hear the difference between the Mandarin pairs if not told what to listen to.

[jbradfor]

renzhe, I hesitate to argue grammar with you as I'll likely be wrong, but isn't the difference between b and p that p is aspirated and b is not?

[renzhe]

In Mandarin the pinyin "b" is not aspirated, while "p" is. Both are voiceless.

In English, "b" is voiced and unaspirated, while "p" is unvoiced. "p" can be aspirated or not, but it is always unvoiced.

Don't trust me on this, as I'm not a linguist, perhaps one of the resident linguists will chime in an put me out of my misery

[Hofmann]

How unfortunate that your first reply has got English and Pinyin screwed up. The rest so far are accurate though.

[renzhe]

Whose reply, mine or jkhsu's?

[feng]

How unfortunate that your first reply has got English and Pinyin screwed up. The rest so far are accurate though.

Can you please be a little more specific. It is not clear what part you believe is "screwed up".

[abytong]

The same "trick" applies to pinyin "d" and "t" (which are [t] and [tʰ], respectively)

does this mean the "d" sound in mandarin and in english are different? cant you give more examples about this? I've read about this before saying that there are no real voiced consonant(浊辅音) in mandarin and have always been wondering what the real [d] sound would be, I can tell the difference clearly between words like skate--gate-kate sport--bought-port etc, (and here the sound of k/p in skate/sport is basicly how g(改)/b(八) is pronounced in mandarin). but when it comes to t/d, the sound of d(打) in mandarin and d/t in dust/stand etc always sound the same to me

[jkhsu]

Whose reply, mine or jkhsu's?

What's wrong with my reply?

[OneEye]

English 'b' and 'p' are not the same as in Mandarin, that's what was "screwed up". renzhe has explained that quite thoroughly in this thread so I'll leave it up to the both of you (jkhsu and feng) to go back and read what he wrote. The problem with using sounds in one language to describe sounds in another is that you will nearly always end up with inaccuracies like this.

[jkhsu]

Ok, that's cool. I edited my post to say they are approximations. I agree with renzhe's posts.

[Gharial]

John DeFrancis' The Chinese Language: Fact and Fantasy, pg 43: "A distinctive feature of the Chinese consonants is the opposition of aspirated (with a puff of air) versus unaspirated (without a puff of air) [as in Pinyin p versus b - Gharial]... In English the opposition is one of voiced versus voiceless - that is, whether or not pronounced with a vibration of the vocal chords... The difference in pronunciation between, for example, the p in spy and the p in pie does not make for a difference in meaning in English [i.e. those two sounds are regarded for all practical purposes as being identical, as being allophones of the single phoneme /p/ in English - Gharial]. It does in Chinese, however, so the two p sounds are differentiated by the spellings b and p."

Daniel Kane's The Chinese Language: Its History and Current Usage, pg 142: "If you use English b, d and g to pronounce the Chinese initials written b, d and g in Pinyin, you will 'zound gweer'. Luckily, English does possess unaspirated, unvoiced consonants, but only after s, and most English speakers are unaware of them."

So the standard trick it seems is to contrast words like spy with pie (to grasp Pinyin b versus p), sty with tie (to grasp PY d versus t), and skate or skit with Kate or kit (to grasp PY g versus k).

An analogy I personally like to make is that Pinyin b is like a goldfish just silently "mouthing" underwater, whilst with Pinyin p the goldfish suddenly lets out a big puffy bubble that races towards and then pops threateningly against the glass. (Cue cracks appearing like in Deep Blue Sea ).

[Silent]

Thanks for all the replies! this should help me to get on the right track.

[XiaoXi]

To be honest I never found a similarity between the p and b sounds in Chinese, there was much more similarity between words that begin with p and t. Anyway if you're worried about this kind of thing I don't recommend learning Japanese! All their romanisation is reversed - v and b, l and r etc. At least in Chinese its just a little unclear sometimes which is which and not all fundamentally reversed.

[creamyhorror]

So the standard trick it seems is to contrast words like spy with pie (to grasp Pinyin b versus p), sty with tie (to grasp PY d versus t), and skate or skit with Kate or kit (to grasp PY g versus k).

Excellent advice. Pinyin 'b' is the 'p' in "spy" or "spat". I'll keep this means of explanation in mind - thanks Gharial.

(I will say, however, that when I pronounce PY 'b', there's still a puff of air - just much weaker than with PY. I can feel myself applying air pressure behind the lips before before saying the 'b'.)

[WestTexas]

never really paid attention to this. I am now wondering if I pronounce this correctly in conversation or if I am saying it wrong but Chinese people have never corrected me. I lived here for like 1.5 years telling people wo3 jiao4 ying1yu3 before someone corrected me, telling me that 教 is read jiao1 when used as a verb. Now I don't trust Chinese people to ever correct me about anything and I wonder how many mistakes I make that will never get fixed.