Standardised list of radical pronunciations?

[davoosh]

I recently realised I'm not actually familiar with several radicals, so the obsessive-compulsive side of me has decided I should learn each (kangxi) radical and its pronunciation - but there don't seem to be any standard pronunciations for certain radicals!

For example,

冂 'jiong1 jiong3'

凵 'qu1, kan3, qian3'

匸 'xi3 xi4'

厂 'han4 han3 chang3' (I realise chang3 is the pronunciation of the simplified character)

etc.

If anybody knows where I can find out a standard pronunciation for each radical it would be greatly appreciated!

Many thanks

[Hofmann]

康熙字典 should have it (in 反切). Here's a list. There is at least one error. Feel lucky?

[Gharial]

There are quite a few listings of the Kangxi radicals available online, but I'm not sure where there's a ("the") standard one (I mean, other than what's in the Kangxi itself).

For what it's worth, I've always found the ABC dictionaries pretty dependable when it comes to this type of info, and the recent and very affordable ABC ECCE has an eight-page guide to the Kangxi radicals at the start of its radical index, in which it says: "The pronunciations of some radicals are enclosed in parentheses below, to indicate that there are no entries for them in the main body of this dictionary. For example, radicals 2 丨and 3 丶have the historical names gǔn and zhǔ, found in old dictionaries but rarely spoken and perhaps not widely known. Radical 4 丿is commonly called piě, but we also enclose piě in parentheses since the form 丿is not used as a character by itself in ordinary writing (unlike 撇 piě), and therefore has no entry in the main body of this dictionary." (See also the scanned second gif posted here: http://www.chinese-f...post__p__263045 ).

You'd probably be better though learning the colloquial (descriptive phrasal) names for the radicals (many of which, especially the more idiomatic ones, I've supplied in my 'Guide to Simplified Radicals', the link to which can be found at the start of the first page of the thread/URL just mentioned), as these can be useful in describing characters e.g. over the phone. See also the start of the last paragaph of the first of the aforementioned gifs, regarding "citation of an occurrence in a well-known term" (the example given is that the 大 in 太 could be described as 大小的大 dàxiǎo de dà, i.e. as the 'big' of 'big and little'...but obviously, a student who didn't recognize even 太 wouldn't really be able to engage much in this sort of descriptive character decomposition LOL).

Other resources that may be of interest are the Kangxi-based Far East C-E Dictionary, which gives the pronunciation of each radical in the header at the start of its section in the main body of the dictionary, and the Macmillan-FLTRP CCD (see the sixth paragraph of the review here: http://www.chinese-f...__fromsearch__1 ), which has an appendical 3-page chart giving the names of the more common radicals.

Again, there are quite a few listings of these colloquial names available online, and one quite often has to choose, to take one's pick, as to which name one prefers most.

[davoosh]

Thanks both - will certainly think about getting that ABC dictionary. The radical listings online seem to be rather contradictory, '凵' such as being listed 'qu1' and 'kan3, qian3. The problematic ones seem to be the ones with very few strokes which don't form words, or are very obsolete words that even the average native speaker has never heard of.

'乙' yi3 or yi4?

'冂' jiong3 or jiong1?

'凵' qu1, kan3, or qian3? (The etymology dictionary even lists qu4)

'匸' xi3 or xi4?

'厂' han4 or han3?

'乁' a variant of 撇 stroke, 'yi2 fu2'

‘巜’ a variant of 川 I have seen listed as 'chuan1, gui4, kuai4'

It would be brilliant if anyone who knows could tell me which names are most commonly used?

The colloquial names I'm not worrying about for now as I can rely on asking native speakers how they describe them - but the natives don't seem to know the actual pronunciation of the radicals which is frustrating me (and I know it's probably a rather pointless thing to learn...but I can't help myself, ha!)

Also, on a somewhat unrelated sidenote (which I don't think is worth opening a new topic for...), what is the top part of '學' is it 爻＋兒?

[Gharial]

Regarding the top of 學, see: http://www.chinese-f...post__p__207592

You can yourself check the first three of the items you've queried, if like I say you take a look at that gif (the second one) showing the first two pages of the introductory guide to the ABC ECCE's radical index.

As for the next two items, the ECCE has them as:

匸 xi4

厂 han3

Regarding variant strokes such as 乁 , and their componential-naming aspects, I recommend consulting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroke_%28CJK_character%29 > http://www.wenlin.co..._2004_05_23.pdf .

I'm not sure what 巜 should be called, but how about "liǎngguǎi" (两横), by analogy with 巛 (sānguǎi, "three turns"); or maybe you could say "liǎngge piědiǎn" (两个撇点) LOL. I note that the wiki page gives 巜's (archaic) name as being guì.

[abcdefg]

The colloquial names I'm not worrying about for now as I can rely on asking native speakers how they describe them - but the natives don't seem to know the actual pronunciation of the radicals which is frustrating me...

But the colloquial names are the most useful parts, as @Gharial pointed out.

You'd probably be better though learning the colloquial (phrasal) names for the radicals (many of which, especially the more idiomatic ones, ... as these can be useful in describing characters e.g. over the phone.

Of course maybe your interest is more that of a scholar than just that of a user of the language in daily life.

[Hofmann]

In the case of 乙, it's a common character, with other characters 鳦 and 亄 that sound like it. It seems pretty obviously yǐ to me.

For 冂, 《集韻》 says "涓熒切，音扃。欽熒切，音褧。戸茗切，音迥。" providing three readings.

凵, I don't know where qū comes from. Everything says 丘范切, 口范切, 苦紺切, and the like, yielding kǎn.

匸, 《唐韻》says 胡禮切. 《集韻》 says 戸禮切，並奚上聲。Both xǐ.

厂, 《唐韻》呼旰切. 呼旱切. 魚杴切，音嚴。 《集韻》 虛旰切，並音漢。All except 魚杴切 say 去聲; none say 上聲.

The ABC dictionary is losing favor in my eyes...

[Gharial]

Well, the original desk/pocket ABC C-E gives 匸 as xǐ rather than (as now in the ECCE) xì, if that's any consolation, Hofmann! And bear in mind that these two particular ABCs are more modern synchronic than historical or diachronic dictionaries, so whatever appendical information they include should be viewed strictly as a welcome bonus than anything claiming to be exhaustively authoritative in every aspect, plus typos and mistakes can of course creep into even the best-edited works. Then, the fact that Davoosh was asking whether it should be xi3 or xi4 shows that it's not just these two ABCs that have differed regarding any one answer. Overall I'd maintain that for general purposes, the credentials and standards of the ABC ECCE are still pretty high. (It was certainly quite an ambitious project!).