Benny Lewis' 3-month quest to become fluent in Mandarin

[imron]

Yes my comment was an exaggeration (if you're allowed to exaggerate for effect, surely I'm allowed to also ).

Imron, sorry you feel that way, but that was never my message so you've simply misunderstood what I've written

Or you've misunderstood how your message comes across to your readers, because I don't think I'm the only one who gets that impression. Although you don't specifically label linguists (or other groups) as 'teh enemy', often the context in which you talk about them on your site gives the impression that you don't really see them as being on your side, and that their thoughts and beliefs are constraining/unhelpful to those wanting to learn a language, or at the very least their thoughts are out of line with expectations the majority of people have regarding learning a language.

Now you can say what you like about linguists, and it doesn't bother me because I'm not one in any way shape or form my point is that you have a tendency in quite a few of your posts to find imaginary enemies for language learners to defeat, listing out various characteristics of said enemies, and sometimes I'll read that and think, well I'm not an <X> but at the same time that's not such an unreasonable position/belief, but your post has left little room for gradations between the Benny Way and Way of <X> and so I'll find myself on the side of holding back learners with my <X>ish beliefs.

Anyway, at the end of the day, you're free to write how you want to write, and I'm not going to be upset if someone on the Internet says my views make me an <X>. If I cared enough about it, I'd comment on your blog or elsewhere. I'm just trying to offer you some feedback on how you could reduce some of the negative remarks you seem to generate, remarks that you admit are taxing to deal with both from a time and an emotional perspective.

[xuefang]

Or you've misunderstood how your message comes across to your readers, because I don't think I'm the only one who gets that impression.

When I first found Benny's blog I thought that he wants to show with his methods that it's possible to be fluent in three months. I also thought that he will learn a language just by going out and talking to people. I thought that his point is that traditional language learning isn't the most effective way to learn. These are the first impression I got from his blog.

During these three months I've noticed that he has to study Chinese very hard, just like the rest of us. He is studying from books, using ChinesePod and teachers, just like I have. He writes that these three months have been a like a hell and a shitty experience. I also sometimes think that learning Chinese gives me a headache.

So my impression of his learning method have changed and it sounds like he is learning Chinese like me (not exactly, but using similar methods that I've used or are using). I kind of hoped there would be a secret hack to make me fluent in a second, but the cold truth is, that work has to be done in order to learn Chinese and become fluent.

[irishpolyglot]

OK, thanks for the feedback Imron, and thanks for the less critical conclusion xuefang.

I agree with a previous comment that I'm too stubborn to be argued with, so maybe we should wrap this up? Quite a lot of contributions to this thread are quite negative, specifically that I'm arrogant, don't have a clue what language levels are, I hate everyone who doesn't learn a language exactly as I do, that I'm an evil snake oil salesman that only cares about bleeding people's wallets dry etc., which perhaps is all very interesting to some people, but I don't see it as a productive discussion.

If people have direct non confrontational questions they'd like to ask me, I'm all ears, but I really don't want to view this forum as a place where I just have to argue with people and defend myself. I'd like to get back to contributing to other threads, as I have genuine questions I'd like to ask, and perhaps even some thoughts that might help other posters, but I still feel very much unwelcome on this site based on this particular thread, and I just see more and more people coming in to nitpick one part or another of my personality they don't like, which I don't consider to be relevant to language learning, or productive in any shape or form.

I think the conclusions are pretty clear: Benny needs to change his tone when writing, and he didn't get C1 Chinese in 3 months, and we don't like his definitions of... well, anything. While it's a bit more complicated than that, it's a fair enough conclusion, no? Let's leave it at that, shall we?

Can we agree to disagree and close this thread by any chance?

[neverending]

Hi Benny. One of the more contentious points for me was how you seemed, at first, to underestimate the difficulty of Chinese. Chinese is not my first foreign language, and I have learned another language that is often defined as "hard" (namely, Polish). But as a westerner, Chinese taken me more than twice as long, in pure study hours, to reach the same level than in any other language.

Otherwise it’s the usual hardest language mentality that I’ve seen so many times before. In each case (Hungarian, Czech, French, Chinese etc.) where an army of people are ready to inform me that THIS one is the hardest, those arguing dismiss the challenges of learning any other languages as trivial, and in the vast majority of cases they have little to no understanding or appreciation of those languages. Frankly I find this way more arrogant than someone like me saying that maybe he could get somewhere with Chinese quickly. Once I have more experience, confirming (along the lines of this post) that Chinese is not as bad as everyone is making it out to be, I’ll definitely be coming back to this point to explain it in greater detail.

(Source: Benny's blog, 1 week into the mission, http://www.fluentin3months.com/chinese-week-1/)

Now that you're finished with the 3 months, care to explain this point in greater detail, as promised?

[simplet]

I don't particularly want to be rude to you, it's just kind of infuriating that you keep misusing what's supposed to be the closest thing we have to a technical measurement of language ability. I think considering your line of work, you could really afford to spend a few days learning all that information perfectly, and you'd be able to give even better advice.

[irishpolyglot]

@neverending OK, a direct question:

I think that comparing languages is pointless because most people learning a foreign language only care about one, so saying that "Chinese is hard compared to X", where you are simply not learning X, is wasteful. Perhaps linguistically interesting, but utterly unhelpful to individual learners, and ignores quite a lot of important details since "all things being equal" is simply not possible. I'll be writing about this in detail in various blog posts, with the sole purpose of encouraging people specifically learning Chinese.

Right now there are far too many stereotypes associated with Chinese, which suggest that you have to be nothing short of a genius to be able to even converse in it. This needs to change. I want much more people to consider learning Chinese, where they might otherwise decide that it's "out of their league" and settle on a European language because of that.

For example, after 3 months of Chinese, my ability to communicate is vastly superior to where I was nine months into learning Spanish. This is because of a different approach, and mentality, and overall comfort and confidence in learning languages. It's not so clear cut as people make it out to be. Perhaps it took you twice as long to learn, but it took me less than half as long to learn, and if you compare actual hours since I wasn't learning Spanish as intensively, it's STILL less time overall for Chinese to get to [insert level I am at now] than it was for Spanish for me.

I don't want to branch off on too many tangents since such a discussion is more appropriate to a different thread or a reply to my blog posts about encouraging people to learn Chinese. Just know that I will definitely explain this point in great depth (as promised) very soon.

[neverending]

Even if we assume that comparing different languages is pointless for the average learner (another point of contention for me), isn't knowing the general difficulty of the one language you're learning valuable? You often write about the value of settings goals for oneself. Isn't it necessary to have some idea of the difficulty of your task in order to set realistic goals?

Realistic goals are not only valuable so you don't get lazy/have unrealistic expectations. They can have a definite impact on a person's planning for the future, especially if this person is planning to use their foreign language in a professional context.

[imron]

I'd like to get back to contributing to other threads, as I have genuine questions I'd like to ask, and perhaps even some thoughts that might help other posters,

New threads cost nothing. Feel free to start one whenever you like (after searching to make sure there isn't a previous thread on the same topic of course )

but I still feel very much unwelcome on this site based on this particular thread,

Well, your profile currently puts your reputation at 13, so overall you've had more people upvote one of your posts than downvote one of them People in this thread at least appreciated your contribution.

[irishpolyglot]

@neverending Valid points, but I disagree. Feel free to reply to the blog post when I expand on it in much more detail.

@Imron Yes, the upvotes are nice, but I can only stand being called a "snake oil salesman", "arrogant", "foolish", etc. so many times before I consider something wasting my time. Overall in the site, it seems I'm welcome and I'd like to contribute positively some more, but on this thread it's not so clear, which is why I'm trying to wrap this up.

I'm sure many people on this site are sick of seeing my name come up as a popular thread, and would be happier to see this topic ease off.

[Shelley]

This is going to be my last word on this subject as i think most points have been made.

What got me (and I have said it before) is the use of the word fluent. "fluent in 3 months".

Benny, you have admit that this is an exaggeration, and somewhat misleading. People who have no idea what is involed in learning chinese may actually believe they could be "fluent in 3 months" and I feel this is wrong.

Now don't get all worked up, and think I am in anyway putting you or your methods down.

I think you have done quite well. but not fluent in 3 months. This is my only critisism of your whole adventure in to learning chinese.

I appluad your go get 'em attitude and I agree that confidence certainly helps, after all if you don't have the confidence to speak to other people in the language you are learning, you won't make much progress.

i admire your bravery for going and imersing yourself in the country and languge.

Overall I think you have done quite well, all things considered.

I appreciate your desire to make language learning accessable and to remove the "fear factor".

Good luck in your future language adventures.

[neverending]

@irishpolyglot - sure, I look forward to reading it.

Also, despite the fact my learning methods/goals are far from yours (I prefer an extensive reading/listening approach, much in the same vein as Steve Kaufmann), I think you do yourself a disservice to say that your blog has entirely no use to people like me. Sure, a lot of your posts are old news/irrelevant to me, and I doubt your language hacking guide would, in my case, be value for money, but there's more than enough insight to stay subscribed. It's simply a case of filtering what I need. So please don't forget us "experienced language learners" when you're writing!

As for continuing the thread, barring some posts that contain emotionally-charged diatribes, I've on the whole, quite enjoyed the debate. Active discussion is much more enlightening than passive assimilation of ideas. However, I can understand why Benny, who is obliged to defend himself, rather than participating out of interest, is getting tired of it.

[Guest realmayo]

I think that comparing languages is pointless because most people learning a foreign language only care about one, so saying that "Chinese is hard compared to X", where you are simply not learning X, is wasteful

Before, you said it was incorrect. Do you still think it's incorrect?

For example, after 3 months of Chinese, my ability to communicate is vastly superior to where I was nine months into learning Spanish.

How does it compare to learning German?

[irishpolyglot]

@realmayo I'll have a detailed blog post about my thoughts on the relative difficulty of Chinese within the next week or so. I'm afraid I can't give a useful concise answer right now.

@neverending Thank you for the very kind words! Appreciate it! I don't really know if what I have to say is relevant at all to experienced language learners, but hopefully you'll find my glass-is-half-full thoughts on Chinese somewhat interesting when I share them, and my cultural updates on the road worth checking out, as using a language for cultural exploration is where my true passion lies.

@Shelly There's no exaggeration implied. It's about ambition, but I understand how it can invite some scepticism. Thanks for the good luck wishes!

[creamyhorror]

@realmayo I'll have a detailed blog post about my thoughts on the relative difficulty of Chinese within the next week or so. I'm afraid I can't give a useful concise answer right now.

I know you have a very strong incentive to label Chinese as being about as easy as everything else, even if you personally felt it was difficult compared to the other languages you've learnt. Nonetheless, I hope you'll be direct about the central, original question of whether Chinese is objectively "harder" to learn than other languages (i.e. whether it takes a learner with a particular set of skills more time to get to the same objective level, as defined by CEFR standards for example). It's perfectly possible to say Chinese is somewhat more time-consuming, but that it's great fun and people should take it on for the sheer heck of it - after all, your video proves it's quite possible to have a conversation/interview in the language after just 2.5 months.

If you claim the question is irrelevant because everyone starts at a different level of language-learning skills (as you did in one of your recent posts) or allocates different amounts of time/effort, then people will rightly see that as a transparent cop-out and evidence that you only write things to cheerlead for new language-learners.

[roddy]

Can we agree to disagree and close this thread by any chance?

You can agree to disagree and stop posting. But personally I think someone signing up as 'irishpolygot' and then claiming to not be a linguist is comedy gold. Plus everyone's rubbing their thighs in anticipation of your Chinesepod and Pasden interviews. Didn't think Internet celebrity guruhood was going to be easy now, did you . . .

[irishpolyglot]

@roddy "I think someone signing up as 'irishpolygot' and then claiming to not be a linguist is comedy gold."

Anyone else see a problem with this statement?

[neverending]

@roddy & @irishpolyglot:

Whether Benny is a linguist is a manner of semantics. Some dictionaries (I checked dictionary.com) define one meaning of linguist as being synonymous with polyglot, which is what roddy means, whereas it's clear Benny uses another definition when he says he's not a linguist: he is stating that he is not a student of the science of linguistics, which is also true.

While I generally like the discussion going on here, I think this particular point is quite petty.

[Shelley]

I think someone signing up as 'irishpolygot' and then claiming to not be a linguist is comedy gold.

Nothing wrong with this statement, that I can see.

Made me laugh.

[johnk]

I did post in this thread near the beginning, so I may as well weigh in with my two cents worth now...

A lot of the problems here concern this word 'fluent'. There are quite a few threads about 'fluent' on this forum. I have always avoided the topic because I am not sure of how to define fluent. As a native English speaker, I sometimes question my own fluency.

But I did say in my previous post that I could get by in Italian. So maybe I should explain what I meant by that:-

I studied Italian casually for about 18 months. Then one day, while living here in the UK, I tried to phone a friend in Ireland. This friend often had foreign students staying in his house. To cut a long story short, I mis-dialled the number and I phoned some random Italian woman. Well, there is only one digit difference in the international code. The conversation started with confusion, then I realized that I had mis-dialled the number and then we had a long conversation, all in Italian. It had to be, she could not speak a word of English. It was only after I hung up I realized that I had spoken to someone:- whom I didn't know, who did not speak English, on the phone, in Italian, for about an hour.

I still imagine this woman telling her friends "Have you heard about the Irish guy who tried to phone home ..."

Listening to Benny's 2.5 month video, there is no way I can see him communicating with a random non-English speaking, Chinese person on the phone for any more than a few minutes.

Benny's profile on here does say:

Currently learning Mandarin in Taiwan with the goal of speaking it fluently by the end of my 3 months here.

So I guess it all boils down to the elusive definitiion of 'fluent'. I will say that I think Benny has done well for 3 months.

He seems to be a personable guy and he can probably 'get by' quite well in person to person interactions.

A interesting question might be "How much Mandarin will Benny be able to speak in 6 or 12 months from now?".

The 'learning Chinese' world is full of people who start off all enthusiastically, they make some inital progress. Then reality bites, they realize that learning Chinese is a long term project and the enthusiasm evaporates. Getting from saying 'ni hao' to discussing the broken down washing machine or renting an apartment or having a heated argument with someone is a long slog.

Many people give up. They complain that Chinese is 'too difficult' and so they add to the general perception that Chinese is difficult. The kind of thing that Benny complains about in fact. It would be a pity if Benny went that way himself. I guess we won't know unless he posts some Mandarin videos sometime over the coming year or so which show his Mandarin improving.

And finally:-

Good luck to you Benny and enjoy China. It is a great country with great people. I am sure you will find it interesting.

JohnK

[irishpolyglot]

"Listening to Benny's 2.5 month video, there is no way I can see him communicating with a random non-English speaking, Chinese person on the phone for any more than a few minutes."

Today alone, I have spoken on Skype (no video) for 4 hours with Chinese natives without using any English. It's why I've been on this forum so much - I've been coming in and out of these calls all day. 2 of the hours were with teachers who would have been aware of how to adjust for me and 2 of the hours are with Chinese speakers who don't know English at all. One of them is someone I found on a random social networking site who lives in Xi'an. I'm sorry but you are dead wrong about your presumption about what I can't do.

Also, everything you've described about what someone realizes with Chinese for complex situations is something that I've already realized many times already in other languages. Replace "Chinese" with any other language and what you said about the complexity of certain situations equally applies. If you can discuss washing machine repair in Italian as well as Chinese then you may appreciate this more than a nice chat over the phone... the road is not just long and difficult in Chinese ;-)

Otherwise thanks for the well wishes.