Benny Lewis' 3-month quest to become fluent in Mandarin

[irishpolyglot]

@陳德聰 I'm afraid you haven't brought any new criticism to the table except to say that my video is "silly".

OK, so I get it. I'm arrogant, unrealistic, only interested in people's money, with completely wrong definitions of everything, and getting a useful level of a language in 3 months is impossible. It's just getting repetitive at this stage, and some tangents (time it takes to learn a language etc.) if you really want to discuss them, would work out much better as separate threads that don't have my name in the title.

I'm requesting again that a moderator close this thread.

[abcdefg]

#301 -- Do we really still need a "Lets beat up Benny" thread? Seems to to go against the generally welcoming and helpful nature of this forum.

[Erbse]

@Benny

Sure, I don't want to use 40 hours a week as an excuse. Work doesn't stop me from learning, but it limits me. It's all about time management and priorities.

There is difference between people who work and then don't learn at all in their freetime and those who work and make the best out of their freetime.

It's true, I could just move to China and work there, however I want to earn solid money and therefore have to compromise. That's my own decision and I am 100% responsible for this decision.

[陳德聰]

What I'm genuinely more interested in is the following months and videos to come, as I imagine making videos in Mandarin doesn't hurt the learning process, right?

[thechamp]

Seriously. Julien gaudfroy the definition of fluency!? Hilarious!

Benny, you've done really well. You're not fluent but I think most people weren't expecting you to talk at a native level. Jkhsu advises people to not even start learning Chinese who're actually living in china. You can't win with some people on this forum. I like your wider mission about encouraging the study of Chinese but you're not C1. Who cares though you've done well

[jkhsu]

Jkhsu advises people to not even start learning Chinese who're actually living in china

Before you spread false statements here, can you find a quote in any of my posts advising people to not even start learning Chinese?

Edit: And please don't take it out of context.

[jkhsu]

I think too many people are quick to dismiss Julien's level as something magical, unreachable.. As I've stated before, what makes Julien stand out is his speed, eloquence, and impeccable pronunciation/phrasing skills. Yes, he's definitely got talent that many of us lack and we may never reach his level of eloquence in speech. However, his response in that video is what I'd expect anyone who is "fluent" in Chinese to make. For the record, pronunciation mistakes and a few grammatical errors here and there are not what I would base fluency on. I care more about what he's actually saying and the use of words to express his thoughts.

I found the transcript of what he said from 02:00 - 03:45. Intermediate learners should be able to understand what he's saying. Of course, to produce (speak) all of this in real time is much more difficult but not impossible. Can someone do this in 3 months? Probably not. But given more time, you can definitely reach a level where you'll be able to give a response at the same level of complexity as Julien's.

Julien：我觉得您说的比较轻松，您知道中国有多少，我个人就已经接触过不少个，这个数字的比例绝对比什么，反正法国啊、美国啊要大很多很多，要不然它不可能到法律里边，我们法国法律不可能涉及到什么“小三”的这种。

胡一虎：因为你法国叫情人啊。

Julien：但是中国有一个特定的什么，他给她买了房，买了车，还给她有这种约定，在法国更多是情人，我们都是独立的人，它不一样的。但是在中国有一大把，包括演艺界的，我也算演艺界，我接触过无数个演艺界的小姑娘，一天到晚张宁益你肯定也接触过，也知道这个。一天到晚地讲，哼，他口口声声说爱我，他买一个房他都不写我名字，你说他爱我吗，他到底爱我吗？

胡一虎：那不是小三那是大三了。

Julien：一天到晚。

胡一虎：这口味很大。

Julien：这种女孩，你知道社会上有多少吗？太多了，非常多，所以你说这种情况下，很多女孩，她是自己去勾引那些男的，男人是一种很冲动的动物，是由生理决定的。

胡一虎：哇，朱力安好成功啊，说这样讲一句话之后马上。

Julien：你知道吗，男人很容易冲动，有好多女孩子，她绝对有这种优势，她用色来诱惑一个男性，其实很多男性，你被放在这种情况下，你绝对经不住诱惑，你绝对经不住，所以说你不能一味的说，这是女方有，有多可怜什么。好多女孩她整天就琢磨着怎么去骗，有钱有什么...

[thechamp]

What?! I suspect that you are a hardcore Internet troll. Do you go on marathon runners websites and tell them it's not worth it/too hard!? Or cookery forums!? Or accountancy studying forums!?

[Guest realmayo]

Erm, where did he say it was not worth it/too hard?

[renzhe]

I think too many people are quick to dismiss Julien's level as something magical, unreachable.

Julien is a role model for all of us the way Stephen Hawking is a role model for physicists, or Glenn Gould for aspiring pianists. We should all aspire to be that good, but the world won't end if we fall somewhat short of that goal after giving it our best efforts.

[Guest realmayo]

As for Julien: he's French. If his English was as good as his Chinese (which it might be) would we say his English was amazing?

[Shelley]

I wonder how many people we will never hear about are fluent/bilingual in chinese/other language.

The 2 best known examples Julien and Da Shan are in the public eye. There are probably loads who prefer to keep out of the public eye for their own good reasons.

I ask the question again, why is it improtant to learn chinese ( or any other language) in three months?

If it is for work, then maybe its understandable, but surely no employer expects you to go from zero to fluent in 3 months. They would probably expect you to do as much as you can and continually learn while on the job.

I learn for pleasure and expect to spend the rest of my life learning chinese. I enjoy it, simple as that. I think I would actually be sad if one day someone said thats it, you have learnt it all.(which I don't expect to happen:)

I realize that you need to set goals, and need to achieve them, but at the same time life is for living and not being constantly discouraged by unattainable goals. Setbacks are to be expected, but you need to just get back on the horse and keep trying.

I know I said my last post would be my last post on this subject but it has taken a new twist (julien) so i had to join in:)

I am intriged by post #304, I kinda figured now hes done the 3 months he would be off on another language quest and forget all about chinese. But maybe i am wrong.

[icebear]

I wonder how many people we will never hear about are fluent/bilingual in chinese/other language.

The 2 best known examples Julien and Da Shan are in the public eye. There are probably loads who prefer to keep out of the public eye for their own good reasons.

I myself know a few. They may not be as emphatic or as native with regards to their accent and mannerisms, but they are incredibly proficient in a huge variety of situations (work related public speechs, drinks out with friends talking about politics, economics, life philosophy, art, media, etc). A couple are in the old China hand category, and just have worked on it over a couple decades; one other that is relatively younger studied intensively in the hinterland for a couple years and has spent the rest of his time since working in a first tier city using using Chinese regularly for both work and his social life. I know that they are also comfortable with composing formal Chinese, which for me seems like a huge threshold to cross because it requires a hell of a lot of reading and writing to get anywhere worthwhile (in a professional sense). I'd say they're as comfortable and can express themselves lucidly in 99% of situations that a educated native would be, which for me is a pretty good sign of fluency.

[thechamp]

Apologies everyone. I've been drinking with extended family for Easter celebrations. Last post was tapped out on an iPad whilst arguing with my uncle about imminent worldwide financial collapse. How's that for an interesting bit of off-topic!?

[陳德聰]

Shelley, on Benny's site he said that a separate goal was also to prepare for his trip through China, where he will undoubtedly continue to progress through Mandarin. (Though I imagine if he doesn't find a VPN it may be difficult to upload his videos to youtube)

[jiasen]

I think it's Benny's style to be somewhat controversial or even combative, whether he realises it or not, and the fact is that works for him. There are plenty of nice language teachers out there who don't get anywhere near the same publicity that Benny does. He's certainly left his impression on this forum. That is because his strategy tends to breed either followers or haters, and you only need a core group of followers to succeed in an online business.

As for your achievements Benny, I was really impressed by your progress in 3 months. You obviously has a lot of talent, but then I know you carefully prepared before leaving for Taiwan and maintained a strategic approach throughout the trip. It's encouraged me as a Chinese learner who is quite advanced in reading and writing, but still struggles with speaking and listening. For example, I am adopting your suggestion of using italki as a tool to find a language teacher. I'm glad that you are putting another 3 months plus into your Chinese studies and wish you all the best.

[yialanliu]

Knowing that it was 3 months worth of effort, then mad props there on your 3 month progress although nothing savant like(or even out of the ordinary) considering I saw the discovery channel with the guy who did better than you(in my opinion) in a week worth of time.

However, my definition of fluent/native speaker is in the context of a resume. If you said fluent Chinese on a resume and I was the interviewer, you wouldn't have passed. You would have actually done poorly enough that I think you were lying aobut your fluency and I'd have tossed the resume away for fear of not knowing what else might have been lies.

I might say proficient is a stetch and familiar is the best I can place you in that context. Not bad, but not close to fluency at all.

Anyways, as an aside, if I met you in person, you would be above average. However, not youtube worthy with your ability. There's actually plenty of foreigners who are fluent. The number of old china hands who are fluent are actually quite numerous. They just tend to be focused in not doing it for attention and not bragging. Sidney Shapiro comes to mind, but then again, he's such an old chinahand, he's been in China since before my parents were even born, and then some.

And I agree, Julien's level is good, but I bet there are people here on this forum (exclude the people with Chinese background like me) who can match that level.

[roddy]

I think we can safely say we're well in to the diminishing returns here. Thanks to everyone who made useful contributions, those of you who just went round in fluency-defining circles should take a look out the window. It might be sunny. If your window appears to be covered by heavy pieces of cloth, try pulling them apart in the middle. These are called curtains.

I'm willing to take a look at reopening this if and when Benny's posted some new and substantial content - watching someone learn Chinese is very much our core business. Until then, back to the rest of the board, folks.

One favour - drop the 'Benny Lewis' references in other topics. There were at least two yesterday, neither of them important. I'd rather not have the discussion sprouting up elsewhere. It's tiresome.