Benny Lewis' 3-month quest to become fluent in Mandarin

[roddy]

Ah well, credit to the man himself for coming along.

I actually think you'll acheive your goal - I'm just not that impressed by the height of the bar you've set. If I'm understanding correctly your 'I'm done' piece is going to be you, interviewing a native speaker, for X minutes, on Youtube. If you're doing the interview, you're going to be in control of the topics. Where's the challenge? As I said up above, you're effectively a professional language learner, studying full-time for three months, in an immersion environment - and you are not just setting your own final exam, you're also administering it.

I've no doubt you'll learn plenty of Mandarin, and if you work towards looking good in a conversation with a native speaker, you'll look good in a conversation with a native speaker. But that's as far as it goes.

C1 essentially means HSK5

I suspect there's at least one discussion in the Exams forum saying that it doesn't. But that's another story.

[irishpolyglot]

To think of it as a "final exam" is inaccurate. I'll share my level at the end, and in other videos. I'll choose someone to interview because THEY can talk about something interesting, and I'll join in. I won't choose someone to ask me about myself, because my blog readers all know my story. I want the content of the video to be worth watching for my audience, which is why I'll choose it. It's to give you an idea of how I'm talking, not a scientific proof. But there'll be other interviews later.

For example, the last language that I learned was Quechua, the Inca language. I could have had a linguist interview me to prove that I had learned some basics, but instead I decided to add value to Youtube and interviewed traditional Peruvian clothing makers. It was not the most efficient way to demonstrate my level, but it was using the language naturally and a genuinely interesting video for all to watch, including Peruvians who don't care about language learning.

Something that people want to watch beyond just seeing how well I'm speaking is the priority - if I can make interesting content in a target language, which NATIVES will find interesting and want to share, that for me is way more important than wowing the English speaking world that I've learned the language.

"Where's the challenge" - seriously??? If you've done what I intend to do, by all means show me your video, explain exactly how you did it to make it so easy, and tell me how much of a walk in the park those 3 months were :-P This will be a challenge - I'm surprised to see someone suggest it will be so easy.

[imron]

Yes - but I'm learning other things in parallel. If you see the image in the blog post linked to, you can see some of my material. One of them is an illustrated dictionary,

Yep, I did have a read of your blog and I also watched the video you posted, but Chinese is what it is, and learning to read in any sort of effective capacity is probably going to be measured in years rather than months (I know reading is not your main goal though).

Anyway, my advice (if you haven't done so already) would be to spend a couple of days really nutting out the tones - being able to hear them, and being able to produce them correctly, and also other aspects of pronunciation - even to the exclusion of other learning. If you spend a little bit of time upfront giving yourself a really solid grounding in pronunciation, it will make the world of difference when communicating with people - i.e. the difference between instant understanding vs quizzical looks and exhanges back-and-forth until the other person finally gets what you're saying.

For reading I would also put the focus on words rather than characters. Obviously you still need to learn the individual characters, but find those characters by taking them from the words you are learning rather than taking them in isolation. If you're already experienced with language learning and memory techniques, then I don't think Heisig will add anything. Anyway, different people have different opinions, and that is just my one. If you do a search for Heisig on the forums, you'll also find various discussions about the pros/cons of the method.

Finally, after reading a bit more of your site, I would forget about Michel Thomas and Rosetta Stone (search the forums for various discussions). Chinesepod.com will probably be quite useful, as would sites like popupchinese.com.

[roddy]

Oh, I'd be rubbish. I'm the world's worst language learner.

[renzhe]

I really like your attitude, and you have my support.

I've learned some of the languages from your list and found them easy. I found that Mandarin was a different beast altogether. It will be interesting to hear your perspective.

Good luck and keep us informed!

[irishpolyglot]

Actually I've found the first Michel Thomas CD to be quite useful in terms of explaining tones. I will go through the whole system, because critiquing language products is an important part of my site. But it won't take long, so don't worry about it sucking up my time. I won't use Rosetta Stone because I've already reviewed them and found it a waste of time. (Google "review of Rosetta Stone" and I'm on page one).

Chinesepod got in touch with me directly, which was very clever of their PR considering my site's traffic, to offer me a free subscription. So I'll definitely check it out ;)

Thanks for the tip! I'll be getting private lessons tomorrow focusing on making sure I can make myself understood with tones, and understand them myself. I'll likely write more thoughts on this in the summary blog post.

[Silent]

HSK5 is not easy. You need to have a decent reading speed, and that alone takes time to develop.

Sure, it ain't easy. That's what I wrote myself.

Just look at what the guy is aiming for. Essentially 2500 words in three months. That's not rocket science. As concluded here before, shown in the videoclip and now confirmed in his post. The guy is focusing on oral language skills and ain't going to do any formal exams. So reading speed won't be too much of an issue I guess. Basicly he ain't aiming for a full hsk5, but an oral hsk5.

Sure, it's not only words, there is grammar and an internalisation process that has to be taken care of etc. Three months is short to achieve it all. Specially if it has to stick and it's not just meant to 'peak at the exam'.

The only thing I try to say is that if 'you' (read all the sceptics) couldn't do it it doesn't mean someone else can't do it. Some commitment and confidence go a long way. And if you critically/objectivly look at what he's aiming for I think it's far less then many overhere interpret it to be. Sure it's a challenge, it won't be easy but I think it's too early to call his failure.

[imron]

I really like your attitude, and you have my support.

Same here.

I will go through the whole system, because critiquing language products is an important part of my site. But it won't take long, so don't worry about it sucking up my time

Fair enough if you're doing it for "work" then. I just found it to be very heavy on English, very heavy on motivational speak, and light on Chinese. You already seem highly motivated, which only leaves a product heavy on English and light on Chinese. You might also check out Pimsleur if you haven't already, which from my impression is basically the same thing but with less English.

[roddy]

"Where's the challenge" - seriously??? If you've done what I intend to do, by all means show me your video, explain exactly how you did it to make it so easy, and tell me how much of a walk in the park those 3 months were :-P This will be a challenge - I'm surprised to see someone suggest it will be so easy.

Actually, let me clarify this, although having read my post back I think it's pretty clear - I'm not saying the entire three months will be a walk in the park, and I have no doubt you'll do a shedload of work. But I've worked within the Council of Europe framework, albeit many years ago, and C1's a pretty damned high level. I can't see how simply interviewing someone (or someones) is going to reflect the range of skills you should have at that point. It's way too limited, and that's the lack of challenge I was referring to. But if the level is an aspirational goal and the interview a final flourish, fair enough.

Best of luck. I was in Taipei this time last year, miserable, isn't it . . .

[irishpolyglot]

@imron Actually one of my biggest criticisms of Pimsleur is how much English it uses. One of my readers analysed their 30 hours of audio and found an incredibly pathetic TEN MINUTES of non-repeated native-content.

Based on what I know of Michel Thomas, I definitely don't expect him to be speaking to me in Chinese in the last lesson, but that's fine since I have conversation opportunities here. I'll endure some English in my first weeks if the explanations genuinely help me.

@roddy Actually, since I'm Irish, I feel right at home in this rain I also study much better in this weather. May it rain much more heavily! I want the sunshine in a month when I'm hopefully taking my pretty (currently non-existent) Taiwanese girlfriend out for nice walks. Before then, nice weather is a distraction from the book learning and audio tapes I have to get through first. ;)

[renzhe]

I understand that you don't intend to take the HSK -- I haven't taken it either. But you might be interested in a different kind of objective evaluation of how far you've come.

One thing many of us enjoy is watching Chinese TV, which is a great way to determine whether you can follow natives on non-specialised topics without them having to slow down for you, or accomodate you. This is what you are aiming for.

You can sift through this thread for some examples, all shows are rated for difficulty and often have useful resources such as vocabulary lists. Personally, I recommend 空镜子 and 家有儿女 as the easiest ones we've covered. Both feature a Beijing accent, so you could also look at a Taiwanese show, like 孽子 or 就想賴著妳. The last one is not brilliant, but is easy (better Taiwanese shows are rather heavy on specialised vocabulary so it might be too much too soon).

You could watch a couple of episodes of a TV show and comment in the corresponding show, if you're interested.

[imron]

Actually one of my biggest criticisms of Pimsleur is how much English it uses.

Haha, well, it'd be interesting to see how you rate Michel Thomas in this regard. I'm not necessarily recommending Pimsleur, I was just suggesting something else in the same style of learning material that had less English than Michel Thomas (based on my impression - I've not gone through the full system of either, so maybe it gets different as the course progresses).

Personally I'm a fan of just taking native material and jumping in.

[rezaf]

Can others in China access this blog directly?

[imron]

Haha, looks like his reason to choose Taiwan has been validated.

[rezaf]

His blog is not completely blocked, however I can only see a few flags and a "FLUENT IN THREE MONTHS". Maybe something is wrong with my browser (safari).

[imron]

I can't see how simply interviewing someone (or someones) is going to reflect the range of skills you should have at that point.

@benny, I vote you interview Roddy

[Guest realmayo]

Yes, no harm having someone say he's going to learn far faster and far better than anyone else and that he's going to prove all those "naysayers" wrong, but rather than giving those naysayers a chance to say "well done" or "I told you so" at the end, it'll just be "oh well that's not bad for three months I suppose but certainly not C1 (and his tones are off)".

[WestTexas]

Benny your review of Rosetta Stone is making my AVG virus software angry, it says you have a "Phoenix exploit kit" on there or something

[m040601]

1. What are these A1,B2,C1 any way ?

Common European Framework of Reference for Languages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languages

2. What does it have to do with chinese ? or the HSK ? Is George Bush "fluent" in spanish ? Does the former US ambassador in China Jon Huntsman speak "fluent" mandarin ?

(english version at the bottom)

http://www.fachverband-chinesisch.de/fachverbandchinesischev/thesenpapiereundresolutionen/FaCh2010_ErklaerungHSK.pdf

---

C1 essentially means HSK5

HSK 5 in not C1. HSK 5 is somewhere between a B1 and a B2. Just like HSK6.

Actually there is currently no HSK level to match either C1 or C2. So yes, that means there is currently no Chinese official "advanced" level test you can pass, that can be compared to any "advanced" level exam you can take in other languages.

It might be bad news for the ones who invested years in reaching an "advanced" level of chinese and can have it testified by an official examination. It might be good news for for the ones studying chinese at intermediary level, since you can now write on your CV that you have passed China's "highest level" official examination.

It was definitely good news for chinese TV, radio, embassy or government website, since now you can report on the "exploding" number of foreigners having reached and passed the "highest level of chinese" ... as of course a proof of chinas' "fast economic development" , government competence, education policies, .

The current HSK (the new HSK) highest level, HSK 6 is a B2, which is a so called "upper intermediary" anywhere in the world where standards are defined, studied and agreed according to pedagogical standards and scientific consent by language professionals, academics and government bodies of many countries.

The only reason you will keep hearing this bullshit, is because the Confucius Institute, China's Language Council and Ministery of Education first published a table in 2010 comparing the HSK levels comparing with the international standards.

This comparison has been contested by the same language professional associations, government bodies that define these international standards as well as by professional chinese teaching associations and academics, with a strong emphasis in Europe. In March 2011 the chinese institution had agreed to remove this linking. As with many other things in China, reality, implementing things and "facts on the ground" looks much other than you see annouced and proclaimed.

As of today, they still have this table on their HSK websites english versions. This is the reason why everyone still reads this stupid comparison between the new HSK levels and the international standards of basic, intermediary and advanced

I suspect there's at least one discussion in the Exams forum saying that it doesn't.

consider it our duty to categorically deny the linking between the new HSK levels, as

set out in the official HSK documents, and those of the Common European

Framework of Reference for Languages (CEFR)

Read this, so you can understand the background. It's written in English, Chinese and German

http://www.fachverband-chinesisch.de/fachverbandchinesischev/thesenpapiereundresolutionen/FaCh2010_ErklaerungHSK.pdf

If you dont actually know what these "standards" are and what they mean, you will always be guessing, "what the heck does this A1,A2,B1,B2,C1,C2 actually means". You will be forever playing with your own definition of "fluent" against someone elses.So first do your self a favor and read and understand what these standards are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languages

This has already been discussed here on chinese-forums, so please stop spreading the misinformation

But that's another story.

[heliogabalo]

Good luck mate. Let's see your results!