Worried about pronunciation (after pimsleur).

[Andrew 45]

Hello again!

I have just finished all 90 lessons of Pimsleur's Mandarin Chinese and now that I am going on to other sources, I worry that I may not actually know the real pronunciation.

Understand that I want to take my pronunciation seriously, but I started with Pimsleur because it is a good beginner resource (albeit it is not instructive on accurate pronunciation without surgically accurate listening skills) and I wanted to finish pimsleur before doing anything else because I feel I can be an intellectual dilettante at times and may not come back and finish it.

I've had the idea that the way to pronounce "x" in Mandarin is like "sh" in English, but you press the tip of your tongue to the back of your bottom teeth and the tongue will have to fold to be able to make the sh sound and it sounds different than just "sh" so I thought that was it.

However, after consulting with a Chinesepod page (a reliable source, I believe) I find that you are supposed to...

To "curl" your tongue?!

http://chinesepod.co...ation/section/4

I try to make my tongue go like this, and it sounds nothing like the "x" sounds I have heard in Pimsleur or indeed anywhere, it sounds like I'm talking with my mouth full.

In any case, I think the easiest way to resolve this would be to find a native speaker who understands they can be as blunt as possible about my pronunciation, but I know no native speakers, I've been doing this self-study since I've started.

I don't know why, but words like "fricative" and "retroflex" and other things just don't help me, I have no idea what those are and somehow know less about them after looking them up.

Now I'm worried that I'm not even speaking Chinese right...

Someone please help... I'm feeling frustrated and confused because it is like putting a whole lot of effort into something (and I know Pimsleur is very very beginner) only to learn I may have learned it all wrong... doing awful things to my psyche .

Thank you again, Chinese Forums.

EDIT: I remember reading in a helpful blog about learning Chinese (forgot where or who...) that suggested practicing the sounds and the tones for a month before embarking on learning Chinese, but I just could not help it, I have to have application to something and once I started Pimsleur I did not want to stop until I ran out of lessons. I somewhat wish I could have practice pronunciation and nothing but pronunciation, but that just isn't who I am as a learner, it has to have some meaning and some purpose or I just can't remember it or don't feel motivated. (Note: I CAN "force-learn" something, but the effort required is five times higher for five times less remembered, making it inefficient... I guess).

[Don_Horhe]

Take a look at John Pasden's explanations on Sinosplice, I've always found them clear and to the point.

[jkhsu]

However, after consulting with a Chinesepod page (a reliable source, I believe) I find that you are supposed to...

To "curl" your tongue?!

Where does it say in that link that you need to "curl" your tongue to pronounce the pinyin "x"? I just want to make sure I'm reading the same thing you are.

Also, is it just the pinyin "x" that you are having an issue with? Another thing you can do is perhaps post some samples of your pronunciation here and get the opinion of other forum members.

[imron]

To "curl" your tongue?!

You are confusing pinyin x and pinyin sh. Pinyin sh needs a curled tongue. Pinyin x doesn't.

[giraffe]

After completing Pimsleur your pronunciation is probably not perfect but at this point I wouldn't worry too too much about getting vowels and consonants exactly right. There are big regional differences in China (eg. substituting "s" for "sh" and "l" for "r") and people seem to communicate ok. I'd say that it's more important to nail the tones. Keep practicing and listening carefully and it will work itself out.

[Andrew 45]

Yeah, I guess I've always somewhat thought of x as my nemesis that I'm never really sure on. The link says that "ch", "sh" and "zh" have tongue curling, but not "x"...

Sorry, just freaking out about my pronunciation quality, thank you for the links and the encouragement.

EDIT: What would be the preferred method of posting samples of my pronunciation? I'm somewhat shy on the idea, but it'd be nice to know how...

[Gharial]

Andrew, the Chinesepod page you've linked to concerns the set of retroflexes (which includes Pinyin sh), hence the "curling back". Pinyin x however is a palatal, so the tongue will be flattish and with its blade (i.e. "brow") near the alveloar ridge and its tip somewhere behind the top teeth.

http://chinesepod.co...tion/section/10

Note also the "complementary distribution" revealed by any Pinyin chart (including the Chinesepod one), i.e. how the retroflexes (and indeed the dental sibilants z, c, and s) only occur in conjunction with the a, the o, the e, the short buzzed i (more like "rrr"!), and the basic u blocks of sounds/syllables, whilst the palatals only occur with the long~medial glide i, and the ü ones. Doing so will help you further master the differences between each set of initials/initial consonants.

[jkhsu]

What would be the preferred method of posting samples of my pronunciation?

Here's how you do it: http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/35986-how-to-record-a-sample-of-your-pronunciation-and-attach-it-to-a-post/

[LaoJian]

Andrew, I can help you if you want~

[BertR]

Andrew, the Chinesepod page you've linked to concerns the set of retroflexes (which includes Pinyin sh), hence the "curling back". Pinyin x however is a palatal, so the tongue will be flattish and with its blade (i.e. "brow") near the alveloar ridge and its tip somewhere behind the top teeth.

You mean lower teeth, don't you?

In the picture for x on the website you posted the tongue is at the lower teeth (as it should be ).

[Gharial]

Oops, after actually checking it, I see you're right, Bert! (I "knew" I was perhaps going to be a little out with that vague 'somewhere...', and see now that I should've concentrated on saying where the tip rather than the blade should be, because if the tip is in the right position then the blade can only but follow really!). Anyway, if you ever hear a slightly higher/more constricted whistling pitch than usual with the palatals, it could be me who's nearby LOL. (Mind you, could just be some smog-induced wheezing generally).

[c_redman]

I think Pimsleur is a great first step for beginners. But for Chinese especially, it is important to be aware of the nature of the individual sounds beforehand. I was thankful that I was aware of the difference between x and sh, for example, otherwise I would have gone through the entire course not aware they were two distinct sounds.

[abcdefg]

I have just finished all 90 lessons of Pimsleur's Mandarin Chinese and now that I am going on to other sources, I worry that I may not actually know the real pronunciation.

Congratulations on your diligence. I did something similar at the very beginning and it served me well in providing a starting point. Then I went to China and "field tested" what I had learned. If regular people on the street didn't understand my memorized Pimsleur phrases, it was "back to the drawing board" with the aid of Chinese teachers and bilingual Chinese friends until I finally hammered it into an intelligible form. In retrospect, I'm not sure this was the best route, but nonetheless it was the one I took.

In my opinion, you will need to find some similar method of obtaining live feedback so that you don't learn too many things wrong from studying "in a vacuum." If going to China isn't feasible for you at the current time, you probably need to scout up some conversation partners instead of worrying about the arcane details of how to curl your tongue just exactly right.

I don't know why, but words like "fricative" and "retroflex" and other things just don't help me, I have no idea what those are and somehow know less about them after looking them up.

Like you, I do better with the applied than the theoretical. It is both a curse and a blessing, and I continue to learn most easily by the ancient "monkey see; monkey do" method.

[Andrew 45]

Alright, it appears I learned "x" and the others like it correctly, but I learned "zh", "ch", "r" (no surprise there, I knew it was tricky) and even "sh" incorrectly.

According to the very helpful sites you nice people gave me, it is supposed to be pronounced with the tongue curling back, I think I understand that now. (For the record, I thought they were pronounced like "x", with the tongue hitting the bottom teeth.)

However, I don't think I can make it sound right, it always sounds like my mouth is full or I have a sock in my mouth.

Is this something that will take stretching of the tongue to do? Until now I have no pronounced any words with the tongue curling back.

It appears I will need to relearn "zh", "sh", "ch" and "r", but fear not! (at least I should fear not, anyway) for I believe it will only be a hard and laborious task if I think it will be, and I am not crestfallen (anymore) about it.

I think I would like to take up LaoJian's or anyone's offer to post my pronunciation, but first I want to make sure I am getting this right... I've found a few vids on it, but... I am not too sure it is helping. They say "lift lever a, turn pad b and pad c should appear" and then I lift lever a, turn pad b and somehow needle w is shot at me; that is to say, I think I'm doing what they say to do, but not getting the same results... any demonstrations about the "zh" "ch" "sh" and "r" sounds as in vids and how it should sound?

Thanks again, forumites!

[jkhsu]

Here are a couple of videos teaching zh, ch, sh, r sounds. However, my suggestion is to listen to the pinyin zh, ch, sh, r sounds for their sounds only and avoid the comparisons to English sounds; this is where much of the confusion comes from.

Also, if you are feeling a sock in your mouth, then you might be curling your tongue incorrectly. It is not bent backwards. Here's a link previously posted by a forum member that explains the correct tongue position.

http://orient.avcr.c...ova/konfer2.pdf

Excerpt from pages 10-11:

"We can see the tip of the tongue is raised against the post-alveolar region. The concave dipping may or may not be present. The tongue is slightly retracted. Although the three speakers are slightly different, in any case it is clear the tongue is not bent backwards. It was proved by the instrumental studies a long time ago (i.e. Ohnesorg & Švarný 1955). The articulation is made with the surface of the tip (or, as Lee & Zee or Ladefoged & Maddieson 1994 assume, even laminaly) - but definitely NOT with the underside of the tip! In spite of a considerable variability of pronunciation, no Chinese speaker articulates these sounds subapically (as Lee & Zee 1999 state). That is why the phoneticians mostly avoid the term retroflex completely, or at most speak of „so called retroflexes“ (e.g. Ladefoged & Wu 1984; of course they stress the adequate interpretation of the term)."

Again, practice with a native Mandarin speaker if you want to get them right.

[Andrew 45]

Thank you very much, Jkhsu. I think I got it, the sound is starting to at least sound like what they are saying, but I should still make sure I am getting it right by conferring with someone.

Now the question is... do I redo Pimsleur all over again?

I am leaning towards no... because I plan on doing FSI and it will begin from the beginning, I just have to remember how to really pronounce zh, ch, sh, and r, but then I heard that FSI advances pretty quick? I'm not sure... this whole thing is just... making me unsure of my skill I guess.

EDIT: Just realized... sorry for all the whining, I'm working on this, I can't give up.

[alanip]

My suggestion: you can google some materials about pronunciation of the tones/sounds you're not too confident of, and know how those sound work.

But don't focus too much time on that---after knowing how to say them more correctly and accurately, listen to a lot of materials, better with those sounds, just listen.

Keep listening and you'll learn them intuitively, it's been proven by countless research and it works for me in learning any foreign languages as well.