的士, 打的 pronuniciation

[eion_padraig]

From looking at a couple at an online dictionary (nciku) and my paper dictionary (精选英汉汉英词典), the 的 in both 的士 and 打的 should be pronounced di2. One of my textbooks (New Practical Chinese Reader 2) and my teacher was saying it should be di1.

Could it be that both ways are correct? Opinions on the matter? It's been a while since I lived in China or visited and my tone identification wasn't spectacular when I did live there.

[siledouyaoai]

According to the 2005 revised edition of the 现代汉语词典, 打的 and 的士 should be read dǎ dí and dí shì respectively. I've got to say though, I've never heard anyone say dǎ dí before. Sounds strange to me. The latest 新华字典 changes that to dǎ dī and dī shì, which I'm guessing reflects the fact that that is the way which most people say it. Maybe the dictionary editors are becoming less prescriptive, you never know.

[Iriya]

You just say 打车. 打的 is a silly mix of Cantonese and English that doesn't make any sense in Mandarin. Once you step out of the classroom, you'll notice that normal people don't really use 打的 that much, if at all.

[skylee]

打的 is a silly mix of Cantonese and English that doesn't make any sense in Mandarin.

Are you quite sure that it doesn't make any sense in Mandarin? And why is it silly?

[xuefang]

You just say 打车. 打的 is a silly mix of Cantonese and English that doesn't make any sense in Mandarin. Once you step out of the classroom, you'll notice that normal people don't really use 打的 that much, if at all.

I would also like to know in which part of China this is silly, if anywhere.

In Guangzhou people say 打的 and 的士 when speaking Mandarin. Actually I learned 租出车 in the classroom and only after stepping out of the classroom I noticed that everyone is saying 的士。

[Iriya]

的 is pronounced /dik/ in Cantonese, so 的士 sort of, kind of sounds like 'taxi' in Cantonese. But it doesn't in Mandarin! Also, the mainlanders prefer to use native vocabulary/direct translations instead of English loans.

Textbooks often teach a lot of awkward vocabulary, to be honest. Very few people say 公共汽车 or 巴士, everyone says 公交. The same with 同屋 and 室友. Etc, etc.

[skylee]

I have no problems with people thinking that 打的 is silly or problematic or whatever as, for me, it is a Mainland term anyways and is hardly used here in Hong Kong (we simply say 搭的士).

But I find it a bit strange when people learning Mandarin comment on terms listed in the dictionary as silly / not making sense, and speak for the Mainlanders of their preference. And I wonder what it would be like if learners were not taught these terms, or if they were taught with the warning that these terms were silly and did not make any sense but because they existed so please learn them. (I note that both terms are marked with the note <方> in the Xiandai Hanyu Cidian.)

PS - the 加 in 加拿大 also does not make sense in Mandarin. 希臘 does not make sense in Mandarin either. 福爾摩斯 is even more puzzling. What should we do with these terms?

[xiaocai]

I say 打的. There are many loan words from dialects in standard Mandarin, too.

[skylee]

xiaocai, do you say di1 or di2?

[renzhe]

的 is pronounced /dik/ in Cantonese, so 的士 sort of, kind of sounds like 'taxi' in Cantonese. But it doesn't in Mandarin!

This is very typical for Chinese, because phonetic loans are often transported using characters, losing the original meaning.

Examples: 纽约 (Cantonese: nau2joek3 ; Mandarin: Niǔ Yuē), 俱乐部 (Japanese: kurabu ; Mandarin: jùlèbù), 麦当劳 ( Mandarin: maidanglao), or the original name for telephone 德律风 (Shanghainese: télífon ; Mandarin: délǜfēng). Telephone was later replaced by 电话, which was coined by the Japanese.

I've heard 打的 used often enough (di1), but 的士 not so much (I did learn it, though).

希臘

I've always assumed that this was a transcription of "Hellas".

But 福爾摩斯 always stumps me. I always think it's "Formosa"

[xiaocai]

da3di1. And I'd assume this is how many other mainlanders would say.

福爾摩斯 is definitely influenced by certain dialect, just like 瑞士.

[skylee]

I agree re Hellas. 瑞士 is sui si in Cantonese.

[pancake]

I've heard that Sweden 瑞典 is also from Cantonese. Anyone care to verify this?

[skylee]

In Cantonese 瑞典 is sui din (in Jyutping (a Cantonese romanisation system) it is "seoi din").

[eion_padraig]

Thanks for the feedback. Clearly a hotter topic than I imagined it would be.

[skylee]

Also, the mainlanders prefer to use native vocabulary/direct translations instead of English loans.

I have spent some more time thinking about this. I am not in a position to comment on how true this statement is, but it reminded me of my previous observation that it seemed that on the Mainland the ATM was just called the ATM機 instead of a more proper Chinese term. Take a look at this picture (probably not accessible for those on the Mainland). Is my observation correct?

[Iriya]

No, ATMs are called 自动取款机 here.

And a Cash Recycling Machine is 自动存取款机.

[skylee]

Thanks for the reply. Maybe that photo was not representative. Or maybe things have changed since 2006. Or maybe I had genralised it too much.

[whdstella]

In Hubei or Guangzhou, people often say 打的，打的士，打车，坐出租车(too long).

[JonBI]

Da di is often used still in Beijing, more commonly than anything else that is said. In Chengdu it is used as well. I do not know where it is not used, to be honest - the term is widely used in standard Mandarin. Da che is used less often, but the world chuzuche is pretty much never used except in the classroom. dishi however is used pretty much only in Guangdong from my experience though.