Argumentation Culture

[Pfund_Gehacktes]

Hello fellow readers,

hopefully somebody could help me understand some "I don't understand"ings...

I am working for a medium size German company in machinery business, we ship a huge number of machines to mass production facilities in Asia.

From time to time I run into some contra argumentation by our Chinese customers (Mainland, Hongkong, Taiwan) what I would call "circular reasoning".

It happens on the low level but also on the high level when we acquire new customers, so I am sure it's not a personal issue related to certain persons.

I give you two examples:

We had customers in Germany for a demonstration of a new machine type. We showed them a running version and also gave them sample products. They also visited a competitor of us and they were not able to show the finished machine, also no products (this is confirmed). Now the customer is back to Taiwan and started an argumentation with us - they say our competitor has a better machine than us because they promised them some better values than we showed.

In other words:

This means they value the proofen existence lower than the promise of virtual features. This kept us from getting the contract with them.

Another example, other customer: imagine you have an error parameter for a product. If this error parameter is low you normally can use the product for the consumer. We found out that there is also a second important parameter which also can be used for quality considerations. So now our products are for 100% in the necessary quality but we do not always fulfill the criteria for the error parameter. We had the guys here and demonstrated and measured everything together with them. They brought samples back to Taiwan and answered now that the can't use the product because we do not reach the criteria for the error parameter. We asked them if they checked the products for possible use but they said they didn't. Argumentation was "if you don't reach the limit for the error parameter than it's not necessary to check the product because it can't be working". They same guys that have seen it working here.

Our sales people always try to overcome this kind of arguments with an even more rational approach but we fail quite often.

My personal idea is that we don't have a good base of trust between the customers and us so they accept what we show but do not really believe us. But I also would like to hear more comments or ideas on these happenings...

[liuzhou]

Without getting into cultural differences, I think there are alternative explanations.

To take your first example, if I understand correctly, you showed them a functioning machine, but a competitor showed them a plan for a machine not yet available, but should it live up to specification would offer extra or more advanced features.

I would wait too.

Example two. If I understand correctly, you admit that your product sometimes does not meet the quality specification. While that may be theoretical, I would probably reject the product too.

Don't blame culture differences for every hurdle you meet.

[Pfund_Gehacktes]

Hm, I thought carefully about my examples but obviously it's not understandable without writing an essay...

I know for sure that we have an argumentation problem with Chinese customers, because we no where else we got this kind of feedback. We are able to sell worldwide but never to Chinese companies.

In the case where they wait for the competitor's product the competitor is not able to show anything, only paper, and it will last at least 3 months till they can deliver. The first mover on the market will get an unique opportunity... this customer is no 3 on the world at the moment but if they can deliver first to mass market the can become no 1. But they don't take the chance.

The case 2 maybe a bad example... to complex to explain it here.

Maybe I try it a different way:

Quite often there are discussions with Chinese engineers about technical things. Now if we show a way to solve the problem sometimes it's a new approach to the matter. We show and work out measurement together with them to prove that this way has the same results but faster/cheaper/whatever. Everything is perfect during the tests, they see it, agree to the results - as soon as they are back or talk to other people from their company their mind changes 180°. I experienced even cases where they suddenly say that they have never seen the positive results together with us.

Even worse, this happens us with engineers from our subsidaries. We have local field engineers in China and Hongkong. So we have training together with them, give them all the results, do demonstrations with them, the see our way and it seems the agree. As soon as they are out in the field together with our customers they totally forget what they have seen at our facility. As soon as a customer disagrees with our way they never try to argue on it, they just deliver the customer's message to us and in discussion disagree with us and agree with the customer. It's like a frontline at the table, the Chinese customer disagrees, our local engineers disagree, and they argue together against us as soon as we are on site. The funny thing is that our local engineers know the same as we do (at least we try to share all the information) but it seems that they believe customer's wishes more than our facts or measurements.

As I said before, this is not an issue with one person or one customer... the number of people involved in these things is ~50 people, so it must be something bigger than personal relations.

[gato]

What incentive would the engineers from your subsidiaries have to lie (it's unlikely that they're forgetting)? If they're lying, why don't you fire them? I don't understand.

Or if they're not lying about the test results, but merely are disagreeing with you about interpretations of the results, then it's possible that when you earlier thought they had "agreed" with you, they really didn't but just didn't express their disagreements strongly enough until their own doubts were reinforced by others. Chinese culture teaches people to be more careful about their own opinions and show deference to people in authority (which you are, as an expert on the products). So maybe it was only after some time and discussion with others that they got enough courage to show open disagreement with you.

[Green Pea]

Seems like you have your engineers trying to sell to your customers. Where are the salesmen? Are your engineers resposible for making sales?

[yonglan]

What you say sounds likely to happen. Unfortunately I have no solution, other than patiently and logically explaining yourself. China is not an especially logical society. Yes, to the nationalists and the armchair multiculturalists, that's what I said.

As for what gato said about deferential Chinese, I think that's not the case. Japanese or Koreans, yes, but Chinese no. Still, try to be clear with your engineers and ask them if they are 100% convinced or 99.9% convinced.

You've sold "worldwide" but have you sold elsewhere in East Asia (Japan or Korea)?

[wushijiao]

Even worse, this happens us with engineers from our subsidaries. We have local field engineers in China and Hongkong. So we have training together with them, give them all the results, do demonstrations with them, the see our way and it seems the agree. As soon as they are out in the field together with our customers they totally forget what they have seen at our facility.

This situation happens at my Chinese fiancee's factory on a daily basis, more or less. Maybe you are talking about the same company! In her factory, sometimes they have had to re-ship tens of thousands of dollars worth of product because the Chinese engineers changed the blueprint without giving the Americans a phone call.

In any case, I have no advice for you or her. I guess that is why I don't do business.

[skylee]

The funny thing is that our local engineers know the same as we do (at least we try to share all the information) but it seems that they believe customer's wishes more than our facts or measurements.

umm ... I am usually a customer. And when I am not I am constantly requested to be customer-oriented. So what is wrong in believing in customers' wishes? If you cannot satisfy your customers' needs, then it is not strange at all that they don't give you the business.

I think sometimes it is likely that the Chinese clients don't tell you that they disagree with you directly to save your face. Or perhaps they react like this just because they want you to lower the prices?

But of course I know nothing about engineering etc etc ...

[bhchao]

They also visited a competitor of us and they were not able to show the finished machine, also no products (this is confirmed). Now the customer is back to Taiwan and started an argumentation with us - they say our competitor has a better machine than us because they promised them some better values than we showed.

In other words:

This means they value the proofen existence lower than the promise of virtual features. This kept us from getting the contract with them.

I'm no engineering expert either, but this looks like a flexibility issue.

Based on what you wrote, it looks like your company is shoving the product to them and saying "This is what we have. It works. Take it or leave it"?

If I was a customer and another seller was willing to offer me a product that has the features I desire, I too would wait for that seller to turn out that product, rather than go for an existing product that doesn't meet my needs.

Is there a reason why you cannot, or not able to produce a machine that has the features they want?

[woodcutter]

What conclusion are we supposed to draw, in the end? That the Chinese are just not rational? You'll hear that in Korea and Japan too, that the locals are not rational, from the western community. If you ain't rational, you can't produce and sell mind bogglingly complex electronic equipment all over the world, in my book.

Anyway, the mistake people make is not that the Chinese are often irrational. They are. The mistake is in looking at a bunch of westerners and thinking, "Ooh, what a really well adjusted bunch of rational people".

If there is anything unusual going on, then it is down to subtle cultural (or perhaps merely private) issues not well understood by our Geman poster, or to changes in behaviour that take place when we are dealing with cultures far removed from our own. On both sides trust is lacking, subtle comprehension of the issues is doubted. If China seems unique, perhaps such a huge, independent and alien place is simply furthest removed.