HSK Level?

[StMatthias]

Currently at my in-laws place in Shanghai (I actually live in the UK) when my mother-in-law has told me I need to study Chinese harder. So as I was thinking about taking the HSK anyway, this has prompted me to take it. My question is then, how best to realistically pick which level is best for me? By which I mean, how did you guys assess your level for your first HSK?

Currently I am considered taking either the level 2 or 3; I had studied Chinese for 2 years at university (as a supplementary, so only 2 hours a week), plus having a Chinese wife and in-laws and access to a lot of resources through them - would I be being silly by wanting to go for the higher level? I think that the only stumbling block I would face would be the supposed 600 characters you need to know, I think my speaking and listening would be less of an issue. Is 9 months or so enough time to learn probably around 400 - 500 characters?

Cheers,

Matt

[renzhe]

Is 9 months or so enough time to learn probably around 400 - 500 characters?

Absolutely. If you're serious, it shouldn't take you longer than a month.

[kdavid]

This will be a good challenge for you, but don't make the centerpiece of your studies preparing for the HSK unless you really need the qualification by a specific time.

Passing a certain level by a certain time is a good goal you should have, but you'll bore yourself to tears if all you study is HSK-prep material.

You should also prepare some other mile-markers in addition to this. For example, by this time next year, be able to have fluent conversations on xyz topics with in-laws.

[StMatthias]

Thanks for the helpful replies. How did you guys, if you don't mind me asking, gauge yourself in terms of where you were before preparing for a test?

Also, with regards to it, I don't need it for a specific reason, I don't really need it at all. It's more so because I struggle to study things unless I have a tangible goal (i.e., an exam), so for me this is a way of forcing me to study...but it does give me something useful at the end.

Renzhe, how would you recommend studying characters?

[johnk]

how did you guys assess your level for your first HSK?

Just download some practise tests and see how you do.

There are links to practise tests on various threads here but I get mine from http://www.ucdcii.ie...cpt&t=downloads.

Note, my problem with HSK level 3 was that I was not able to read quickly enough, so if you are going to do the practise tests then make it realistic and time yourself.

Good luck

[renzhe]

Renzhe, how would you recommend studying characters?

This depends on the person.

If you're interested in a steady, solid, long-term approach to language learning, then you should follow a good textbook and learn all the characters and words there, plus any that you find when reading other materials (comics, books, etc.)

If your speaking and listening are ok, but you can't read, then I'd get the list of 1000 most common characters and brute force that -- while trying to read as much as you can.

In any case, use a computer program like Anki, which will space the repetitions for you and reduce your load. Use it daily.

[kdavid]

@StMatthias

Check out this ebook. It outlines many key strategies to learning Mandarin in a short amount of time. If your wife is Chinese, and you have regular contact with Mandarin speakers, you can progress quite quickly.

Renzhe's advice is very sound. I highly recommend the New Practical Chinese Reader series. Set a goal for something like one book per month, or six weeks. If you're investing time each day into your studies, this should be very realistic.

[GaryM]

It is interesting to hear other peoples perspectives.

Just to give you something to compare with, I started learning HSK characters from scratch a week ago. I have learnt 150 in one week, averaging 3 hours a day for 7 days. However, I already speak Japanese and recognize most of the characters! If I could learn 400-500 in a month, I would be pleasantly surprised. For someone who does not have my background in Japanese, starting from scratch, I think that might be a tough target.

Having said that, I spent quite a quite bit of time on pronunciation, which was completely new for me. You (StMatthias) may have some advantage here if you have studied some Chinese previously and are already familiar with pinyin. LIke you, I want to keep the HSK tests as a goal, so at least I have some objective benchmark of my progress in learning the characters.

As for the best approach, I ordered a Wacom Bamboo graphics tablet, and started using Skritter as soon as it arrived. It really is excellent, although the quality of the audio sample sentences is not very good at the moment. This may improve with future with plans for tatoeba.org integration.

I would also be very interested to hear other peoples estimates of how long it should take to learn 400 - 500 characters (including writing, some simple word combinations and pronunciation). If you can learn 400 a month, can you carry on at this rate for the next month? Learning 2,400 characters in 6 months? I guess I should be able to answer this question from studying Japanese, but I took a leisurely pace in studying Kanji over a number of years, I have no idea how fast it can be done if someone is 100% focussed. I hope I am not hijiacking the thread in saying that hearing other experiences on this would be quite informative.

[imron]

For a person with other commitments and not able to do full-time study, I have found that 5-10 words a day (where 1 word may contain 1 or more new characters) is a very sustainable rate.

5-10 words might seem quite low if you're trying to learn as much as possible in as short a time as possible, but don't be so quick to dismiss it. It's a target that doesn't require a huge time commitment per day (half an hour to an hour), and is comfortable enough that it won't lead to burnout over longer periods of time. What's more, once you add in the time multiplier the numbers start to look much better - maintain that pace for a year and you'll have learnt somewhere between 1,800-3,600 new words, many of which will contain new characters.

[StMatthias]

Again, thanks for the helpful replies. I am downloading the E-book as I type, and fortunately the New Practical Chinese Reader is what my uni classes used - so I already have two volumes of that (having completed both at uni, but I could do with the revision).

GaryM, it's funny you should mention Japanese as I also studied Japanese for some time too! So there will be some overlap, however my level of Japanese probably isn't as high as yours. I'll take a look at the Wacom Bamboo tablet you mentioned. Also, I'd like to know about the character learning a little more - I've heard of people learning vast numbers for the HSK and for the JLPT in relatively short spaces of time.

[StMatthias]

(Sorry for the double post). imron, I was going to add/ask whether people getting such high numbers in were working full-time? I like your idea too, especially when you consider the time multiplier and the fact that it's practical for the working man.

[imron]

I'm sure people can achieve such high numbers while also working full-time (I believe Renzhe was doing this), the question then becomes how long you can sustain that pace.

5-10 words a day is very maintainable, and if you are taking a long-term approach, 2-3 years down the track you'll have made impressive progress. The hard part is doing it every day.

[WestTexas]

The highest rate I'm somewhat comfortable with is 40 new cards in Anki per day. Once I've been doing that for awhile I will have around 300 reviews per day, which will take around an hour. It also takes me about 3 hours once a week to put the new cards in. While I think an experienced learner wouldn't have too much trouble doing 400-500 characters in a month, someone who is just starting characters, I think, might need a bit more time.

[renzhe]

I would also be very interested to hear other peoples estimates of how long it should take to learn 400 - 500 characters (including writing, some simple word combinations and pronunciation). If you can learn 400 a month, can you carry on at this rate for the next month? Learning 2,400 characters in 6 months?

For me, it went like this:

1000 in 1 month

2300 in 1 year

3500 in 2 years

It levelled off strongly after that, but it was also because I focused more on vocabulary study (words). I was studying as a hobby, in addition to a full-time job. Learning them faster is possible, if that's all you concentrate on, but I'm not sure if it makes much sense. I found that the reading I was doing was really useful (I started reading real books at around 2000 characters and 5000 words), and you will need about 2 years for your long-term memory to really internalise the characters anyway. Until you've read a certain amount of written work, you will not be reading, but recognising symbols, and you need to get past that stage eventually.

That said, learning them too slowly is also rather pointless IMHO. 3500 characters covers most of what you need, and you'll need to learn them sooner or later. With a good plan and daily practice, doing it in 2 years is completely reasonable, as long as you use a SRS program and avoid burnout.

And then, a whole endless sea of learning material becomes available, and learning Chinese becomes so much fun.

[GaryM]

Thanks renzhe that makes a lot of sense. I doubt personally that I have your talent for languages, but it is a target to aim for. Unfortunately I never reached the level in Japanese that would allow me to read books comfortably. I recognize now that this was the major impediment to me expanding my vocabularly. I will try to avoid making the same mistake in studying chinese.

[kdavid]

A bit off topic, but where's that online test which estimates how many characters you know?

I remember taking it a long, long time ago. I'd like to see how I match up now, five+ years later.

[gato]

You can try PMing smalldog here:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/4611-how-many-characters-do-you-know-program/page__fromsearch__1

How many characters do you know program

[renzhe]

I doubt personally that I have your talent for languages, but it is a target to aim for.

Actually, it doesn't matter if it takes you a year, 3 years or 3 months. What is important is to do it every day, without fail, and to structure it well so you are always progressing. Make it a part of your daily routine, like brushing your teeth and breakfast. Just do your characters every day.

Many people fail because they study characters on and off. Ignore them for two weeks, then go psycho for 5 hours on the weekend. It's simply a vast amount of information that your brain needs to soak in, so you have to do it daily. Just avoid burnout and keep moving forward, and you'll reach it eventually.

I used to be afraid of characters, but now I realise that they are not really all that difficult to learn. If you dedicate enough time every day and make sure that you're progressing (like keeping track of how many characters you know using an SRS program), it's hard to fail.

[Sk8TN]

Quote:

For me, it went like this:

1000 in 1 month

2300 in 1 year

3500 in 2 years

It levelled off strongly after that, but it was also because I focused more on vocabulary study (words). I was studying as a hobby, in addition to a full-time job. Learning them faster is possible, if that's all you concentrate on, but I'm not sure if it makes much sense. I found that the reading I was doing was really useful (I started reading real books at around 2000 characters and 5000 words), and you will need about 2 years for your long-term memory to really internalise the characters anyway. Until you've read a certain amount of written work, you will not be reading, but recognising symbols, and you need to get past that stage eventually.

[end quote]

Could I ask Renzhe, could you handwrite from memory all 1000 characters learned in a month, or read and type them?

I can read and type so many more characters than I can remember how to handwrite readily. Flashcards really help me for reading, but not remembering each stroke for handwriting. Is there a better flashcard for that, or is it a normal problem to some extent? Thanks.

[GaryM]

This is one of the reasons I chose skritter rather than other SRS software as it forces you to write the characters, but combines the usefulness of flashcards. I found when studying Japanese that my retention was so much better if I concentrated on writing the characters, rather than pure flashcard approaches that develop recognition skills.