Ted C. Posted January 30, 2012 at 12:11 AM Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 at 12:11 AM Hi everyone, I'm a software developer who's been learning Chinese on-and-off for several years. After years of wrestling with Cangjie (and making numerous notes about how I wish it were better), I decided to make my own input method. It's called Jade Gazebo, and it's available from http://jadegazebo.com. I think it's an ideal input method for people who are learning Chinese. As a shape-based input method, it helps you learn the structure of characters (preventing character amnesia), and allows you to type characters you don't know the pronunciation of (of which there are many when you are learning). It's great for looking up unfamiliar characters on Wiktionary. Unlike Cangjie, it's very forgiving for beginners. There are multiple ways to type most characters, so you don't have to get it exactly right. Furthermore, there are no complicated decomposition rules, and there are no "auxillary shapes" that need to be memorised. It even tries to guess what you might be typing and prompts you for it. The only daunting thing is that it uses a lot of keys (well, more than English... but less than, say, Thai or Hindi). I've tried to put the keys in a sensible arrangment. The bottom three rows are common radicals arranged more-or-less in KangXi order. The top row are "radicals" that are more rare. Despite being designed for beginners, I think it's still a very powerful input method. More than 99% of characters have a unique input sequence, so you can type without looking at the screen much, which makes it suitable for professional touch-typing. Imagine that. You can start as a hunt-and-peck typist and eventually become a professional touch-typist, all while using a single input method. Anyway, I'd love to hear any feedback on it, especially if you think there's anything that can be improved. Right now it only supports Traditional Chinese (because that's what I use), and it only works on Windows (ditto). But I'm working on a version for Simplified Chinese, and a version for the Web. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skylee Posted January 30, 2012 at 11:14 AM Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 at 11:14 AM I object to any tools that require a lot of learning (such as cangjie). It looks like your input method will require some learning and practising. I wonder why one should choose it if there are indeed easier input methods (e.g. the stroke-based 九方, and also pinyin / zhuyinfuhao). Can one type faster using your method than using pinyin input? I note that for sogou and google pinyin input methods there is now a function for users to key in characters based on the 5-stroke method (same as that used on cell phones). So I would think that if one only ocassionally encounters words that s/he cannot pronounce, that function is quite useful. I guess I am just wondering why your input method is superior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted C. Posted January 30, 2012 at 04:54 PM Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 at 04:54 PM I object to any tools that require a lot of learning (such as cangjie). Yeah, Cangjie really is a pain. It looks like your input method will require some learning and practising. It requires a little bit, but you can grasp the theory in 5 minutes, and you can get fairly proficient after playing with it for about a day. I've shown it to friends who don't know any Chinese at all, and within 5 minutes they were able to type random characters I showed them, which is something that could never happen with Cangjie. Also, the "learning" involves simply playing with the method, rather than reading books or memorising rhymes, which appeals to certain kinds of learners. You just need to know your KangXi radical variants (e.g. 心＝忄), which was the main stumbling block for my non-Chinese-speaking friends. Can one type faster using your method than using pinyin input? Yes. My input method allows you to touch-type "blind" (without looking at the screen). If you're typing from a document, it's much faster than pinyin because you don't have to proofread what you've typed. (You might not realise that you can type blind using Jade Gazebo, because it's constantly prompting you to hit F1, F2, or TAB. But that's all optional.) I wonder why one should choose it if there are indeed easier input methods (e.g. the stroke-based 九方, and also pinyin / zhuyinfuhao). Well, I don't know pinyin very well, so that's not a practical option for me. You might be in the same boat if you're an older person in Hong Kong, or a speaker of a minority dialect, or if you grew up outside of China. If you're learning Chinese, I think it helps you remember the characters if you type by shape, rather than pronunciation. In China, young people use pinyin input so much that they have trouble remembering the shapes of characters when they write by hand. (It's called character amnesia.) And that's in a country where they use Chinese characters all the time. Imagine how much worse it must be if you're in the West. Also, there's the blind typing, that I already mentioned. I've used 九方. I found it pretty slow, since you constantly have to choose your character from a long list of candidates. Thanks for your questions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbradfor Posted January 30, 2012 at 05:16 PM Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 at 05:16 PM This does look interesting, and I don't mean to be rude by this, but I'm not going to install a random .exe files off the web. Is there any way you can have this on a web site, or otherwise more secure, for us to try out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skylee Posted January 30, 2012 at 05:59 PM Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 at 05:59 PM Ted C. mentioned touch type "blind", and it got me thinking. I type everyday, but there are now few chances / little need to type from a document. Nobody ever seems to draft on paper any more. I draft everything by directly typing into the computer so my eyes are always on the screen (because I know the keyboard). When I translate, although I have to look at the original document, I will translate it in my head (thus need time to think and ususally eyes rest on either the original or the screen) and type directly into the computer. So I guess my question is - do people still need to type from documents speedily? Sorry if this is irrelevant to the topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted C. Posted January 30, 2012 at 06:15 PM Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 at 06:15 PM This does look interesting, and I don't mean to be rude by this, but I'm not going to install a random .exe files off the web. Is there any way you can have this on a web site, or otherwise more secure, for us to try out? I'm working on a web version, but it's probably still a couple weeks away from being finished. It depends on how much time I get to work on it. I promise there's no keylogger or any malware in my software. Uh, I guess that doesn't mean much coming from an anonymous stranger on the internet. Would it help if I showed you my LinkedIn profile? This is me: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/ted-clancy/1a/384/4a0 Perhaps someone else on this forum could confirm that my program didn't trigger their anti-virus or anti-malware software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbradfor Posted January 30, 2012 at 06:24 PM Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 at 06:24 PM I'll wait for the web version At least now you're random, not anonymous. Perhaps someone else on this forum could confirm that my program didn't trigger their anti-virus or anti-malware software. That, alas, is not proof. You could have written your own new malware, which, since it is new, the scanners wouldn't know to check. @skylee, I agree with you. However, when I'm typing and looking at the screen, I'm usually reading a bit behind what I'm typing. pinyin IME really interrupt the flow as I can not type ahead of where I'm reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted C. Posted January 30, 2012 at 06:37 PM Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 at 06:37 PM That, alas, is not proof. You could have written your own new malware, which, since it is new, the scanners wouldn't know to check. I guess I can't prove anything, but by linking to my LinkedIn profile, I'm staking my professional reputation (and hence my livelihood) on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkhsu Posted January 30, 2012 at 08:21 PM Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 at 08:21 PM Well, I don't know pinyin very well, so that's not a practical option for me. You might be in the same boat if you're an older person in Hong Kong, or a speaker of a minority dialect, or if you grew up outside of China. I think this (your quote above) is your primary audience. It's going to be someone who already knows how to write Chinese characters but does not speak Mandarin and has never learned pinyin (and doesn't plan to). As a learner, I want to type in pinyin because it helps me with learning and remembering how to pronounce a character. I looked at your example and practice text: http://jadegazebo.com./practice.pdf and can't see how this is easy for a beginner. You'd have to learn how to decompose every character into radicals. Plus, if one wants to learn to write, then one needs to write by hand. Just knowing the radical components for a character does not mean one remembers how to write that character. For me, typing in pinyin is not a crutch, it's an invaluable resource for me to remember pronunciation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted C. Posted January 30, 2012 at 08:40 PM Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 at 08:40 PM I looked at your example and practice text: http://jadegazebo.com./practice.pdf and can't see how this is easy for a beginner. You'd have to learn how to decompose every character into radicals. I actually just took that down. I think it gives the impression that you need to learn everything on that sheet before using it, and that there's only one correct way to type each character which needs to be memorised. Those things aren't true. Did you actually try using the input method? Go ahead and try it first, and then let me know how easy or difficult it is. But indeed, you might not be the target audience for this. I made it for myself, and for people in the same boat as me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkhsu Posted January 30, 2012 at 09:09 PM Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 at 09:09 PM No, I haven't tried it. Why don't you post some step by step screen shots of how this works? Enter some simple stock phrases to show how easy it is compared to say pinyin. Another thought. You might want to work with a dictionary vendor / app as an additional input method for entering characters. A lot of people use mdbg.net online and we use this system http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=radicals of looking up characters we don't know. If your input method provides an easier / faster way of finding a character, it might be useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imron Posted January 30, 2012 at 11:34 PM Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 at 11:34 PM You'd have to learn how to decompose every character into radicals. This is something that as a learner you should definitely want to be able to do, and is far more valuable in my opinion than getting extra pinyin practice (which you can get all the time anyway through other activities). Just knowing the radical components for a character does not mean one remembers how to write that character. You'd be suprised. I type mostly with Wubi, and I learnt it specifically because it helped me learn to decompose characters into individual parts, and also because once I knew those parts it helped me remember how to write them. Perhaps someone else on this forum could confirm that my program didn't trigger their anti-virus or anti-malware software. I did, and can confirm it didn't trigger any anti-virus or anti-malware software (I installed it in a VM anyway, so it wouldn't have made a huge difference if it had). Personally, I think this is a really novel idea. I really like how the candidate window shows you the key shape map so you don't have to constantly look for another reference. This is a big plus over other shape-based methods where you typically need to spend quite a bit of time practising before you can productively use the input method. A couple of points I would add: 1) After installation, Jade Gazebo set itself to be my default IME - not sure if this was by design, however as a user this is not what I would want or expect. 2) Can you map the key to display the keyboard map to something other than 'Insert'? My laptop doesn't have an 'insert' key, and so I had to press a normal key to first bring up the map, then find the shape, then delete the first key I typed and so on. Something like a single press/release of ctrl (or some other key that doesn't require me moving fingers from the home keys) would be my preference. 3) Not sure if this is a difference between mainland/HK IMEs, but typically for mainland IMEs a single press/release of the shift key switches between English/Chinese input, rather than capslock. 4) On your front page, the bullet point "Easy to learn" should link to your page with instructions on how to use the IME (I can't seem to find that page now, but I remember you had to click through a number of pages before getting to it). 5) It'd be nice if I didn't have to reboot the machine after installation. You should be able to install an IME without requiring this. On a technical note, can I also ask what process you use to install the IME without requiring administrator privileges? That's something I would like to be able to do with the IME that I wrote - currently users have to run the installer with the "Run as administrator" option to allow the installer to copy the IME to the windows system dir. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted C. Posted January 31, 2012 at 12:45 AM Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 at 12:45 AM Thanks, Imron. Those are all good points. 1) Oh yeah, I guess I should ask the user before doing that. I was just trying to make installation easy for the user. In the next release, I'll give the user a chance to override that behaviour. 2) Hmmm, laptops. Okay, tapping Ctrl sounds good. I'll make that change. 3) I kinda like CapsLock because it has an indicator light on it, so people who type staring at the keyboard won't forget what mode they're in. I guess I could make it both. 4) I was thinking the same thing. I'm going to make some changes to that tonight. 5) You're right. At the time I wrote that, I thought the reboot was necessary, but it's not. I can make it work without a reboot. I should be able to make those changes over the next couple days. On a technical note, can I also ask what process you use to install the IME without requiring administrator privileges? If you have a recent version of the Microsoft Linker (I think you need Visual Studio 10), you can simply use the linker option /MANIFESTUAC:level="requireAdministrator". Otherwise you need to embed an XML "manifest" file, which is a bit cumbersome. You can find instructions on MSDN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imron Posted January 31, 2012 at 01:02 AM Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 at 01:02 AM 1) Oh yeah, I guess I should ask the user before doing that. I was just trying to make installation easy for the user. As a first time user when I install your IME I don't really know anything about it and am really just installing it to test it out, rather than because I want to be using it all the time as the default. Also, as a Chinese learner but a native English speaker, my default keyboard is an English one, so even if I wasn't a first time user and knew that I really wanted to install the IME permanently, I still wouldn't want it set to be the default. 2) Hmmm, laptops. Okay, tapping Ctrl sounds good. I'll make that change. Not just laptops, many people who use Macs (like myself) still run Windows in a VM, and my iMac keyboard doesn't have an 'Insert' key either. 3) I kinda like CapsLock because it has an indicator light on it, so people who type staring at the keyboard won't forget what mode they're in. I guess I could make it both. Most IMEs have an indicator that shows in the toolbar. Anyway, it's not a big thing, just something I noticed that was different from other IMEs I use. If you have a recent version of the Microsoft Linker (I think you need Visual Studio 10), you can simply use the linker option /MANIFESTUAC:level="requireAdministrator". Otherwise you need to embed an XML "manifest" file, which is a bit cumbersome. You can find instructions on MSDN. I do have Visual Studio 10, but unfortunately any programs linked with Visual Studio 10 and above don't work under XP (although there are hacks you can use to work around this). So it looks like I'll have to add it to the manifest file manually. Thanks for the info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted C. Posted January 31, 2012 at 01:07 AM Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 at 01:07 AM Why don't you post some step by step screen shots of how this works? Enter some simple stock phrases to show how easy it is compared to say pinyin. That's not a bad idea. I don't have time to make screen shots right now, but here are some stock phrases to show how my method compares with pinyin. I'm going to assume that you're typing while looking at the screen. Pinyin is on top (the hyphens represent the Spacebar), Jade Gazebo is underneath (the slashes represent Enter, the equals sign represent Tab). 中國是個美好的國家 zhong-guo-shi-ge-mei-hao-de-guo-jia- w=/pv/b=/up=/oqjk/Kt/rb=/pv/ep=/ 祝你生日快樂 zhu-ni-sheng-ri-kuai-le- Ylh/uT/Jj/b/cw/Lr/ 那在漢語里叫什么 na-zai-han-yu-li-jiao-shen-me- td/U=/nZw/Y=q/mj/hW=/ud/rG/ So, it almost looks like Jade Gazebo takes fewer keypresses than pinyin. However, pinyin has the advantage that (depending on your software), you don't necessarily have to hit the spacebar between words. But pinyin also has the disadvantage that sometimes you have to scroll through a large list of words. Another thought. You might want to work with a dictionary vendor / app as an additional input method for entering characters. Hmmm. I'll think about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted C. Posted February 14, 2012 at 06:14 AM Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 at 06:14 AM And now it supports Simplified Chinese. Also, it no longer requires a reboot, and the Ctrl key brings up the on-screen keyboard. (I decided to stick with using the CapsLock key to toggle the input mode. It turns out I nervously hit Shift a lot without meaning to.) That took longer than I thought it would. I haven't had a chance to work on the web version yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted C. Posted February 16, 2012 at 07:32 AM Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 at 07:32 AM Hey, can I ask a mod to move this thread to "Computing and Electronics"? I think it might fit better there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imron Posted February 16, 2012 at 11:05 AM Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 at 11:05 AM Done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted C. Posted February 16, 2012 at 09:27 PM Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 at 09:27 PM Thanks, Imron! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yadang Posted March 16, 2014 at 08:37 AM Report Share Posted March 16, 2014 at 08:37 AM Hey Ted - the website for Jade Gazebo is down - are you still using/offering to others to use this input method?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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